Should remainers vote for the Libs?

[Mrr T]

andymadmak said:

If you remain a member of the single market you cannot negotiate your own trade deals.
You seem to know an awful lot about what the EU will or will not ever demand from UK. Are you based in Brussels?

you are confusing the SM with the CU.

[Mario149]

Rich_W said:

Mario149 said:

It is. We've been over this a million times. It's just not the kind of leaving that some pro-Brexit people want. Rather than hashing it to death again, you'll just have to accept that some people don't equate being in say the EEA as being in the EU.

The problem is that the EU Commission weren't offering that. Which is a shame, since it's what the vast majority of people want. But they INSIST on chucking on the little line about "free movement"

if they'd offered that when Dave went and had a chat pre Referendum. I think Remain would have won. If Buts and Maybes of course.

I think you've misunderstood me. I'm saying that there are many people out there (myself included) who are fine with the concept of leaving the EU but being part of the EEA and respecting the 4 freedoms. No matter how much it is repeated, being in the EEA does not mean you are in the EU, and that's the bit there's no point in re-hashing for a millionth time. I'd argue strongly that it's better to be in the EU than in the EEA, but that's a different point.

[chrispmartha]

jshell said:

andymadmak said:

chrispmartha said:

andymadmak said:

jjlynn27 said:

andymadmak said:

You are so polite. Charm school was wasted on you.

Now, as it happens I do think that some Remain voters do want the UK to suffer for the reasons I have stated, and certainly some Remain voters have said that they want Brexit voters to suffer personally - on this very forum. They represent a tiny minority in my view, but they exist nevertheless. You do of course remember the lady on QT who wanted the children of Brexit voters to contract incurable illnesses so that they could see the consequences of their actions?

I do remember Lady on QT who misspoke and profusely apologised and explained what she meant. I do remember that some posters on PH thought that she would give inferior care to Brexiters, because of course, one of the questions during triage is 'how did your parents vote in referendum', 'Oh right, back of the queue'.

The level of tinfoilery displayed by some, and I do include you in that group, is astounding, but not surprising if you have dailymail headlines as your opinions.

Of course she apologised profusely. Not to have done so would have cost her her job. Misspoke? Your wilful blindness to the truly nasty nature of some Remainers says quite alot about you. One does not have to be too imaginative to have a pretty clear idea as to what your view would have been had it been a Brexit voter wishing ill on the children of Remainers.

This, again, really.

Which is more likely?

A. A women fluffed her words in a lively debate On live TV and later apologised.

B. A women who has all her working career been in the care industry suddenly really does wish children to be ill because of how their parents voted in a referendum.

Because you are a decent and reasonable person, you will want to believe that option A is the right answer. Watch the video. She is an intelligent articulate woman. She did not misspeak in my opinion. Her track record elsewhere (you can google her) is as a passionately, ardently campaigning remainer. It is not such a stretch to see that her passion has driven her to option B "for the greater good" as she sees it.

I guess we will never know for sure, - you will want to believe her, possibly because you voted remain(?) and would not want to believe that someone who shares you view on the EU could be so extreme in her opinions. I will be somewhat more sceptical, possibly because I voted Exit, and because I have witnessed first hand the sort of vitriol and nastiness that some (a very few) on the Remain side are prepared to dish out to Brexit voters.
I remind you again that even on this very website you had Remain voters wishing economic disaster on Brexit voters. Not everyone is as nice or understanding as you may be.

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21PNW5z7JTs

Pretty clear in her words.

And pretty clear in her apology that it didn't come out the way she meant it to

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_581c6db6e4b09d57...

[///ajd]

blindswelledrat said:

andymadmak said:

You can if you are a passionate Remain voter who is looking to grasp at any straw that might thwart the leaving process.
You can see that people like Mrr T genuinely want to believe that the EU holds all the cards, and that somehow the UK is going to be completely stuffed by Brexit. They have to believe these things because to concede otherwise would be to accept that there is precious little reason for the UK to stay in the EU. The next step along is for them to WANT the UK to fail in the negotiations, to actually WANT the UK to suffer massive economic damage post Brexit, simply so that they can say "I told you so".
.

What moronic arse-about-face logic.
Talking for myself, if anything whatsoever made me think we are not guaranteed to be worse off then I would happily be a 'leave' voter. I would be 100% delighted to be proved wrong on this issue.
As it stands though, the inflation resulting from Brexit means that more or less all the people in the country are currently worse off.
Banks are starting to the process of moving their centres to Europe.
Any European *thing* based here is leaving.
It appears to be certain that immigration will remain the same after Brexit.
The country is utterly divided.
Racist crimes are on the increase.

All off the top of my head and these are the consequences of merely intending to leave, let alone leaving.
In the meantime the only Economic report which suggested we would be better off has been thoroughly debunked.
And to my knowledge not one single positive has occurred.
I cannot see one iota of silver lining to this debacle other than a few blokes on the internet saying "Yay, this will be great. Loads of opp0ortunity will come to us" and quite literally nothing to support that optimism.

Your belief that people like myself actually want the country to fk up is ludicrous even by your standards. Every single person like me would love to be wrong

Well said. Sadly it does not look like we will be wrong.

Cue wails of traitor and bedwetter.

It will be interesting if there is a strong "lib dem = fight for remain values" campaign.

Single issue politics historically never seems to work, but the country is so divided, who knows?

PS I don't think the Tories can lose, and the nation can finally confirm what most think of corbyn.

[London424]

blindswelledrat said:

andymadmak said:

You can if you are a passionate Remain voter who is looking to grasp at any straw that might thwart the leaving process.
You can see that people like Mrr T genuinely want to believe that the EU holds all the cards, and that somehow the UK is going to be completely stuffed by Brexit. They have to believe these things because to concede otherwise would be to accept that there is precious little reason for the UK to stay in the EU. The next step along is for them to WANT the UK to fail in the negotiations, to actually WANT the UK to suffer massive economic damage post Brexit, simply so that they can say "I told you so".
.

What moronic arse-about-face logic.
Talking for myself, if anything whatsoever made me think we are not guaranteed to be worse off then I would happily be a 'leave' voter. I would be 100% delighted to be proved wrong on this issue.
As it stands though, the inflation resulting from Brexit means that more or less all the people in the country are currently worse off.
Banks are starting to the process of moving their centres to Europe.
Any European *thing* based here is leaving.
It appears to be certain that immigration will remain the same after Brexit.
The country is utterly divided.
Racist crimes are on the increase.

All off the top of my head and these are the consequences of merely intending to leave, let alone leaving.
In the meantime the only Economic report which suggested we would be better off has been thoroughly debunked.
And to my knowledge not one single positive has occurred.
I cannot see one iota of silver lining to this debacle other than a few blokes on the internet saying "Yay, this will be great. Loads of opp0ortunity will come to us" and quite literally nothing to support that optimism.

Your belief that people like myself actually want the country to fk up is ludicrous even by your standards. Every single person like me would love to be wrong

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

[andymadmak]

chrispmartha said:

And pretty clear in her apology that it didn't come out the way she meant it to

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_581c6db6e4b09d57...

well, with my cynical hat on, she could hardly say otherwise could she?

I could ask what she was really trying to say when what she actually said came out so wrong? - but she has not offered this extra information as far as I am aware (happy to be proved wrong on this point)
Anyway, it's a thread diversion, and probably best taken elsewhere.

[Mario149]

Burwood said:

Mario-how is 400 seats going to, in anyway, shape or form be dictated to by a few Lib Dems. You also fail to realise that only a tiny few will actually bring themselves to vote for a party they never have. God, bring on June 8th, like tomorrow. 7 weeks of hearing Tim Farron, Corbyn and Gina Miller prattle on about changing the incumbent. I'll take bets with anyone 5:1 the Tories get over 400 seats

By your logic no-one should have ever bothered to vote for any other party than Labour or Conservative.

Small sample and anecdotal clearly, but as of yesterday I know about a dozen friends and colleagues who have previously voted Tory all their life and will vote LD in this election. Also know a few Labour voters who will be going LD too. And that's without even asking them.

[chrispmartha]

andymadmak said:

chrispmartha said:

And pretty clear in her apology that it didn't come out the way she meant it to

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_581c6db6e4b09d57...

well, with my cynical hat on, she could hardly say otherwise could she?

I could ask what she was really trying to say when what she actually said came out so wrong? - but she has not offered this extra information as far as I am aware (happy to be proved wrong on this point)
Anyway, it's a thread diversion, and probably best taken elsewhere.

She could have said nothing, or say that's actually what she really feels.

Fwiw I think she meant to say I hope that children don't get ill as brexit could mean there are fewer staff to deal with it.

Humans are fallible and can say things wrong or things they don't really mean in a heated discussion especially on live TV, so when they apologise I like to think i'm the type of person that accepts what I feel to be a sincere apology.

[egor110]

Mario149 said:

Burwood said:

Mario-how is 400 seats going to, in anyway, shape or form be dictated to by a few Lib Dems. You also fail to realise that only a tiny few will actually bring themselves to vote for a party they never have. God, bring on June 8th, like tomorrow. 7 weeks of hearing Tim Farron, Corbyn and Gina Miller prattle on about changing the incumbent. I'll take bets with anyone 5:1 the Tories get over 400 seats

By your logic no-one should have ever bothered to vote for any other party than Labour or Conservative.

Small sample and anecdotal clearly, but as of yesterday I know about a dozen friends and colleagues who have previously voted Tory all their life and will vote LD in this election. Also know a few Labour voters who will be going LD too. And that's without even asking them.

What do they hope to change by voting lib dem ?

We are leaving the e.u.

The eu want to punish us so it will be a hard brexit , how can lib dems change either of those ?

[chrispmartha]

andymadmak said:

chrispmartha said:

And pretty clear in her apology that it didn't come out the way she meant it to

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_581c6db6e4b09d57...

well, with my cynical hat on, she could hardly say otherwise could she?

I could ask what she was really trying to say when what she actually said came out so wrong? - but she has not offered this extra information as far as I am aware (happy to be proved wrong on this point)
Anyway, it's a thread diversion, and probably best taken elsewhere.

Nicola gorb said

"I hope nobody is in that position with an ill child who can’t receive care because that research has been cut"

That's quite clearly what she meant to say

[andymadmak]

blindswelledrat said:

What moronic arse-about-face logic.
Talking for myself, if anything whatsoever made me think we are not guaranteed to be worse off then I would happily be a 'leave' voter. I would be 100% delighted to be proved wrong on this issue.
As it stands though, the inflation resulting from Brexit means that more or less all the people in the country are currently worse off.
Banks are starting to the process of moving their centres to Europe.
Any European *thing* based here is leaving.
It appears to be certain that immigration will remain the same after Brexit.
The country is utterly divided.
Racist crimes are on the increase.

All off the top of my head and these are the consequences of merely intending to leave, let alone leaving.
In the meantime the only Economic report which suggested we would be better off has been thoroughly debunked.
And to my knowledge not one single positive has occurred.
I cannot see one iota of silver lining to this debacle other than a few blokes on the internet saying "Yay, this will be great. Loads of opp0ortunity will come to us" and quite literally nothing to support that optimism.

Your belief that people like myself actually want the country to fk up is ludicrous even by your standards. Every single person like me would love to be wrong

Ahh, a Remainer opening up with insults. How novel.

Look, taking your post seriously, I genuinely do not recognise many of the points you are making.
I don't think anyone credible has ever said that leaving the EU would not involve some short term pain. Personally I took that to mean that we would be worse off for a short period. (we can no doubt argue over the definition of "short period"), so I was never looking for the kind of guarantee that you mention.
I see Banks opening facilities in Europe to facilitate continuation of business that requires a footprint in the EU, but as far as I am aware, no Bank is moving its centre to the EU is it?
Of course all the European things/bits will leave UK. Why would they stay if we are not part of the EU? I genuinely see no surprise in this.
You don't know what will happen with immigration and the point about racist crimes being on the increase is not as clear cut as you make out. (although I do not dispute that nutters on both extremes of the debate have behaved badly)

The point you make about the country being utterly divided is interesting. I say interesting because I presume you would be happiest if the country was not divided by the country deciding to agree with you? You are as much a part of the division as anybody else - although I don't see the levels of division that you declare - utterly divided? No. To my eyes most people are just getting on with it. Whether Remain or Exit vote, there is a commonly held recognition by most folk that we are leaving and we now have to get on and negotiate the best deal. It's the folk on the extremes that are causing the problems.

[don'tbesilly]

Mario149 said:

Burwood said:

Mario-how is 400 seats going to, in anyway, shape or form be dictated to by a few Lib Dems. You also fail to realise that only a tiny few will actually bring themselves to vote for a party they never have. God, bring on June 8th, like tomorrow. 7 weeks of hearing Tim Farron, Corbyn and Gina Miller prattle on about changing the incumbent. I'll take bets with anyone 5:1 the Tories get over 400 seats

By your logic no-one should have ever bothered to vote for any other party than Labour or Conservative.

Small sample and anecdotal clearly, but as of yesterday I know about a dozen friends and colleagues who have previously voted Tory all their life and will vote LD in this election. Also know a few Labour voters who will be going LD too. And that's without even asking them.

We've heard your anecdotes before.

[WCZ]

egor110 said:

What do they hope to change by voting lib dem ?

We are leaving the e.u.

The eu want to punish us so it will be a hard brexit , how can lib dems change either of those ?

easily, the lib dems will just ask them and they'll help accommodate us

the eu WANTS us back in.

they are punishing us for leaving

[blindswelledrat]

andymadmak said:

Ahh, a Remainer opening up with insults. How novel.

Look, taking your post seriously, I genuinely do not recognise many of the points you are making.
I don't think anyone credible has ever said that leaving the EU would not involve some short term pain. Personally I took that to mean that we would be worse off for a short period. (we can no doubt argue over the definition of "short period"), so I was never looking for the kind of guarantee that you mention.
I see Banks opening facilities in Europe to facilitate continuation of business that requires a footprint in the EU, but as far as I am aware, no Bank is moving its centre to the EU is it?
Of course all the European things/bits will leave UK. Why would they stay if we are not part of the EU? I genuinely see no surprise in this.
You don't know what will happen with immigration and the point about racist crimes being on the increase is not as clear cut as you make out. (although I do not dispute that nutters on both extremes of the debate have behaved badly)

The point you make about the country being utterly divided is interesting. I say interesting because I presume you would be happiest if the country was not divided by the country deciding to agree with you? You are as much a part of the division as anybody else - although I don't see the levels of division that you declare - utterly divided? No. To my eyes most people are just getting on with it. Whether Remain or Exit vote, there is a commonly held recognition by most folk that we are leaving and we now have to get on and negotiate the best deal. It's the folk on the extremes that are causing the problems.

I agree that I don't blame Brexit voters for the division. It is the issue itself that is the great divider and naturally I am equally responsible for the division as you. As to the levels of division, I suppose that in incalculable so there is no victor in that discussion, but in my eyes this has divided us more than any other issue in my lifetime be that by class, colour, creed or anything else.
That you admit short-term pain means that you do recognise everything I have said. If you accepted that all along, then fair enough, but this is not typical.
And your cry of "Ah a remain voter opening up with insults - how typical" is a little hypocritical given the insult I was replying to which claimed that someone like myself was stupid enough to actually want everything to go tits up.
Anyway, this kind of conversation is perfectly indicative of the division I am talking about. There are no absolutes and none of us can tell the future but we are both certain we are correct in this and both contemptuous of one anothers views. In real life we are probably both average middle class white British blokes who those who know us would describe as 'normal' hence should naturally get on, and yet you and your views are so alien to me that it feels like we come from completely different countries i.e. you are more foreign to me than 90% of immigrants and very likely vice versa.

[VolvoT5]

I couldn't vote for the Lib Dems for these reasons really

1) Because they broke their biggest headline promises on PR voting and tuition fees in order to become a bit part player in the coalition government. I fail to see what they really achieved and Farron is on record basically saying they would do the same again.

2) Regardless of there you are a leaver or remainer their position on Brexit is patronising and hypocritical. "People didn't vote for X, Y or Z, we must have another vote on the final deal" seems to be their argument. They just want to ignore the result which for a party with democrat in their name is ridiculous.

3) Tim Farron is no more credible as a leader (or deputy PM perhaps) than Jeremy Corbyn. His religious views seem to colour his judgement and as such his fuzziness and voting record on gay rights issues is questionable. Again somewhat ridiculous for a 'liberal' party.

[Mario149]

egor110 said:

Mario149 said:

Burwood said:

Mario-how is 400 seats going to, in anyway, shape or form be dictated to by a few Lib Dems. You also fail to realise that only a tiny few will actually bring themselves to vote for a party they never have. God, bring on June 8th, like tomorrow. 7 weeks of hearing Tim Farron, Corbyn and Gina Miller prattle on about changing the incumbent. I'll take bets with anyone 5:1 the Tories get over 400 seats

By your logic no-one should have ever bothered to vote for any other party than Labour or Conservative.

Small sample and anecdotal clearly, but as of yesterday I know about a dozen friends and colleagues who have previously voted Tory all their life and will vote LD in this election. Also know a few Labour voters who will be going LD too. And that's without even asking them.

What do they hope to change by voting lib dem ?

We are leaving the e.u.

The eu want to punish us so it will be a hard brexit , how can lib dems change either of those ?

If you can't understand why someone would vote for a party that represented their views best even though they won't win the election, then I really can't help you.

The EU don't want to punish us, that's DM talk. What they do want to ensure is that we don't get as good a deal as we do now so as to maintain the integrity of the EU.

[blindswelledrat]

London424 said:

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

The 1980's called. They want their irrelevant pantomime phrase back.

[amusingduck]

blindswelledrat said:

London424 said:

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

The 1980's called. They want their irrelevant pantomime phrase back.

[Mario149]

don'tbesilly said:

Mario149 said:

Burwood said:

Mario-how is 400 seats going to, in anyway, shape or form be dictated to by a few Lib Dems. You also fail to realise that only a tiny few will actually bring themselves to vote for a party they never have. God, bring on June 8th, like tomorrow. 7 weeks of hearing Tim Farron, Corbyn and Gina Miller prattle on about changing the incumbent. I'll take bets with anyone 5:1 the Tories get over 400 seats

By your logic no-one should have ever bothered to vote for any other party than Labour or Conservative.

Small sample and anecdotal clearly, but as of yesterday I know about a dozen friends and colleagues who have previously voted Tory all their life and will vote LD in this election. Also know a few Labour voters who will be going LD too. And that's without even asking them.

We've heard your anecdotes before.

As before, you don't have to believe them if you don't want to. I'm not claiming it as represntative of the country, merely of the people I know. Think of it along the same lines as when people who voted Leave on here say that they barely know of anyone that voted to Remain, that should help. Both are equally valid as we're all likely to associate more with peoplw who think like us.

[egor110]

VolvoT5 said:

I couldn't vote for the Lib Dems for these reasons really

1) Because they broke their biggest headline promises on PR voting and tuition fees in order to become a bit part player in the coalition government. I fail to see what they really achieved and Farron is on record basically saying they would do the same again.

2) Regardless of there you are a leaver or remainer their position on Brexit is patronising and hypocritical. "People didn't vote for X, Y or Z, we must have another vote on the final deal" seems to be their argument. They just want to ignore the result which for a party with democrat in their name is ridiculous.

3) Tim Farron is no more credible as a leader (or deputy PM perhaps) than Jeremy Corbyn. His religious views seem to colour his judgement and as such his fuzziness and voting record on gay rights issues is questionable. Again somewhat ridiculous for a 'liberal' party.

1- what a dillema for all those young voters who got the lib dems the coalition seat and we're then shafted with a tuition fees turn around.

Do they forget about the past to beat the conservatives or as in the the E.U vote just not bother voting then go nuts on social media when the vote didn't go there way.