Should remainers vote for the Libs?

[Mario149]

El stovey said:

Mario149 said:

TLandCruiser said:

Mario149 said:

You should vote to unseat the Tory candidate. Ideally to replace with a Lib Dem as they are opposed to Brexit (esp hard Brexit), but if a Labour candidate is more likely to win you should vote for them as even though they will support Brexit, they're anti hard Brexit and the less MPs the Tories have the more difficult it is for them to force through a hard Brexit.

Ridiculous

So how would you suggest voting if you are anti Brexit or at least anti Hard Brexit?

For May as she actually agrees with you,

See my other reply

[bearman68]

I have never voted anything but Tory. At heart, I'm a conservative through and through. But Brexit is terrible for the country, and hard brexit about the worst possible outcome. We are going down the Hard route to satisfy a small number of Tory right, who would have us out despite the national interest. I will not support that.
If there was a party that was called INEU I would vote for that, but since there isn't I will vote LD. I'm in Monmouthshire, and our MP is quite pro Brexit, so that helps.

[jonnyb]

El stovey said:

jonnyb said:

Likes Fast Cars said:

frisbee said:

I'm voting LD, they are very likely to regain the seat where I live. The local conservative who won the last election is very good but I don't support Brexit.

Its a shame that there is no credible opposition in this country.

So you would vote-out a very good MP just because of Brexit? Guess what - Brexit is here to stay. Why punish a good MP? It's like firing someone for doing their job and having no-one to replace them with (as you say "there is no credible opposition in this country").

Because in a democracy, when something happens you don't like, you use your vote to get it changed.
It looks like frisbee is lucky enough to be in a constituency where it might make a difference.

But the PM didn't want Brexit either. She's just decided she should sort it out as that's the democratic result of the vote the last PM (who didn't want Brexit either) arranged,

Voting out a PM who didn't want Brexit because you don't want Brexit isn't going to stop Brexit. Best you can hope for is that a PM who holds your view might be well placed to get a result in the negotiations you might be more in support of than an ardent leaver would try to negotiate.

Would you really want the PM to ignore the Brexit result or try to reverse it after the vote? I'm not sure that would make her a very good PM. She didn't want it, but is trying to do the best for her country with what the voters have presented her with.

Brexit will happen, but the type is very much up for grabs.

I don't want Brexit, and certainly don't want the version that Mrs May has put forward, outside the customs union, outside the single market ect.

Mrs May is all but certain to win this election, the question is by how much. To my mind every vote for the LibDems is a voter telling Mrs May that they are unhappy with her direction of travel and that she should change.

Equally, a vote for UKIP is a vote telling her to move further to the right.

She may be trying to do her best, but that is not good enough.

And I haven't even started on Grammar schools yet!

[jonnyb]

bearman68 said:

I have never voted anything but Tory. At heart, I'm a conservative through and through. But Brexit is terrible for the country, and hard brexit about the worst possible outcome. We are going down the Hard route to satisfy a small number of Tory right, who would have us out despite the national interest. I will not support that.
If there was a party that was called INEU I would vote for that, but since there isn't I will vote LD. I'm in Monmouthshire, and our MP is quite pro Brexit, so that helps.

I would agree with this. It sums up my position.

My conservative MP is very pro Brexit, he's also a total idiot, so I will have great pleasure in voting against him.

[anonymous-user]

Mario149 said:

El stovey said:

Mario149 said:

Tony Starks said:

jonnyb said:

Likes Fast Cars said:

frisbee said:

I'm voting LD, they are very likely to regain the seat where I live. The local conservative who won the last election is very good but I don't support Brexit.

Its a shame that there is no credible opposition in this country.

So you would vote-out a very good MP just because of Brexit? Guess what - Brexit is here to stay. Why punish a good MP? It's like firing someone for doing their job and having no-one to replace them with (as you say "there is no credible opposition in this country").

Because in a democracy, when something happens you don't like, you use your vote to get it changed.
It looks like frisbee is lucky enough to be in a constituency where it might make a difference.

But if Brexit is here to stay, how will it make a difference? I'm overseas, so not 100% with whats going on back home.

Brexit may well be here to stay, but the type of Brexit should def be on the table.

If you're a remainer, isn't having a remain PM most likely to give you the best kind of Brexit? I would have though leavers are going to be better represented under May than anyone else.

I think we can safely say that whatever TM was before the referendum, she's not a Remain PM now. Her apparent views and rhetoric do not represent the view of anyone who voted Remain that I know.

What else can she do though? She didn't want Brexit so is just trying to get the best deal for the UK with the referendum result she has been handed.

I agree though that her contradictory statements could make it look like she's trying to appease or unreliable though.

[Don1]

In answer to the OP, no. Listening to Tim F on the radio he has indicated that his main election point will be for a second referendum to see if we approve of the deal.

Brexit is happening, if we like it or not it seems.

[rxe]

I think the talk of hard brexit as an objective is overdone. I don't believe any one, even Farage, wants a "hard, burn 'em all and us" Brexit. What everyone wants is a sensible agreement that lets the Germans carry on selling BMWs to us, and for us to sell Financial Services to them. This is what in all likelihood we'll get.

However, in any negotiation, you want to be holding a big stick. May's stick is "I've been given a huge majority by my population to agree any damn deal I like. I'd prefer to have a good deal, but I'll invoke mutually assured destruction if you won't give me a good deal."

The way to get a good deal for the country is either to give her that majority, or give her nothing. The absolute worst outcome is a razor thin majority or similar that continues to whine and is on the other side in the negotiation.

If Farron was in charge, he'd crawl over to Brussels, roll on his back and appeal to their religious convictions to give us a good deal. They say "boo" and he'd be back here waving some bit of paper like Chamberlain.

Corbyn would miss his 'plane to Brussels and arrive after the negotiations have finished because he took his bicycle.

[Mario149]

El stovey said:

Mario149 said:

I think we can safely say that whatever TM was before the referendum, she's not a Remain PM now. Her apparent views and rhetoric do not represent the view of anyone who voted Remain that I know.

What else can she do though? She didn't want Brexit so is just trying to get the best deal for the UK with the referendum result she has been handed.

I agree though that her contradictory statements could make it look like she's trying to appease or unreliable though.

She's backed herself into a corner so what she can or can't do is entirely her fault. Ironically, if she is actually pro-Remain and really wants to avoid Hard Brexit, then having a whole load of traditional Tory voters abandon her will actually help her to turn round to her uber Brexit nutters in the party and give her some leverage to rein them in. jonnyb put it best:

jonnyb said:

I don't want Brexit, and certainly don't want the version that Mrs May has put forward, outside the customs union, outside the single market ect.

Mrs May is all but certain to win this election, the question is by how much. To my mind every vote for the LibDems is a voter telling Mrs May that they are unhappy with her direction of travel and that she should change.

Equally, a vote for UKIP is a vote telling her to move further to the right.

She may be trying to do her best, but that is not good enough.

[Hayek]

Mario149 said:

You should vote to unseat the Tory candidate. Ideally to replace with a Lib Dem as they are opposed to Brexit (esp hard Brexit), but if a Labour candidate is more likely to win you should vote for them as even though they will support Brexit, they're anti hard Brexit and the less MPs the Tories have the more difficult it is for them to force through a hard Brexit.

What's the difference between Brexit and hard Brexit?

[Mario149]

rxe said:

However, in any negotiation, you want to be holding a big stick. May's stick is "I've been given a huge majority by my population to agree any damn deal I like. I'd prefer to have a good deal, but I'll invoke mutually assured destruction if you won't give me a good deal."

That tactic relies on the fact that it would actually have to be mutually assured destruction, which to put charitably, is by no means certain.

[Hayek]

jonnyb said:

Brexit will happen, but the type is very much up for grabs.

If we actually leave the EU our relationship with it would be able to change should a future government wish to try to change it.

jonnyb said:

I don't want Brexit, and certainly don't want the version that Mrs May has put forward, outside the customs union, outside the single market ect.

Inside the customs union and inside the single market is not leaving the EU at all. We had a referendum on this.

[Mario149]

Hayek said:

Mario149 said:

You should vote to unseat the Tory candidate. Ideally to replace with a Lib Dem as they are opposed to Brexit (esp hard Brexit), but if a Labour candidate is more likely to win you should vote for them as even though they will support Brexit, they're anti hard Brexit and the less MPs the Tories have the more difficult it is for them to force through a hard Brexit.

What's the difference between Brexit and hard Brexit?

For me personally? Loosely put, anything less than being in the EEA. Although I could be flexible on some aspects of that.

[Mario149]

Hayek said:

Inside the customs union and inside the single market is not leaving the EU at all. We had a referendum on this.

It is. We've been over this a million times. It's just not the kind of leaving that some pro-Brexit people want. Rather than hashing it to death again, you'll just have to accept that some people don't equate being in say the EEA as being in the EU.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

London424 said:

You mean Tim 'I don't really like the gays' Farron?

Not sure he's the one to be backing in this race.

He can believe what he wants, but it's his actions that count. His voting record on gay rights is actually very good. Unlike most religious politicians (Theresa May being one), he seems good at compartmentalising his personal beliefs and leaving them at home.

[jonnyb]

Hayek said:

Inside the customs union and inside the single market is not leaving the EU at all. We had a referendum on this.

Really? My ballot paper said nothing about leaving the single market, or the customs union. Did yours?

[Likes Fast Cars]

El stovey said:

But the PM didn't want Brexit either. She's just decided she should sort it out as that's the democratic result of the vote the last PM (who didn't want Brexit either) arranged,

Voting out a PM who didn't want Brexit because you don't want Brexit isn't going to stop Brexit. Best you can hope for is that a PM who holds your view might be well placed to get a result in the negotiations you might be more in support of than an ardent leaver would try to negotiate.

Would you really want the PM to ignore the Brexit result or try to reverse it after the vote? I'm not sure that would make her a very good PM. She didn't want it, but is trying to do the best for her country with what the voters have presented her with.

well said. I cannot understand why everyone doesn't understand "Brexit is here to stay" it's not that hard really. These people all saying they'll vote LD because they want to stay are just plain fking stupid - why bother voting?

[Likes Fast Cars]

El stovey said:

Mario149 said:

Tony Starks said:

jonnyb said:

Likes Fast Cars said:

frisbee said:

I'm voting LD, they are very likely to regain the seat where I live. The local conservative who won the last election is very good but I don't support Brexit.

Its a shame that there is no credible opposition in this country.

So you would vote-out a very good MP just because of Brexit? Guess what - Brexit is here to stay. Why punish a good MP? It's like firing someone for doing their job and having no-one to replace them with (as you say "there is no credible opposition in this country").

Because in a democracy, when something happens you don't like, you use your vote to get it changed.
It looks like frisbee is lucky enough to be in a constituency where it might make a difference.

But if Brexit is here to stay, how will it make a difference? I'm overseas, so not 100% with whats going on back home.

Brexit may well be here to stay, but the type of Brexit should def be on the table.

If you're a remainer, isn't having a remain PM most likely to give you the best kind of Brexit? I would have though leavers are going to be better represented under May than anyone else.

Touche!

[Likes Fast Cars]

Hayek said:

Mario149 said:

You should vote to unseat the Tory candidate. Ideally to replace with a Lib Dem as they are opposed to Brexit (esp hard Brexit), but if a Labour candidate is more likely to win you should vote for them as even though they will support Brexit, they're anti hard Brexit and the less MPs the Tories have the more difficult it is for them to force through a hard Brexit.

What's the difference between Brexit and hard Brexit?

Brexit is (as it currently looks): we get fked by Junk-man and his neo-soviet buddies and have to bow & scrape for eternity to trade with them, >50% of the UK population are unhappy at being held to ransom by these corrupt s.

Hard Brexit is: we stand up to their bully-boy tactics, call their bluff. In other words, we've tried to be nice and accommodating but you (the EU) want it all your own way on terms which are not advantageous to us (the UK), now kindly fk-off and do as you please while we get on and build a sustainable economy with a global trading mentality.

[Likes Fast Cars]

Mario149 said:

So how would you suggest voting if you are anti Brexit or at least anti Hard Brexit?

Wait until we see the policies.

All this talk about a protest vote to prove some irrelevant point is futile.

[HerrSchnell]

frisbee said:

I'm voting LD, they are very likely to regain the seat where I live. The local conservative who won the last election is very good but I don't support Brexit.

Its a shame that there is no credible opposition in this country.

The point of electing an MP to Parliament is that they are the best person to represent their constituency, Article 50 has been invoked meaning Brexit is happening regardless.

Considering the above points I think a LD vote is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face.