Should remainers vote for the Libs?
Discussion
footnote said:
turbobloke said:
footnote said:
Pooh said:
I am not sure why you have such difficulty understanding a simple point, lets just wait and see who wins the election, I fully expect the Conservatives will get an increased majority, the lib Dems will pick up a few seats, the SNP will lose a few and labour will lose a lot. We will see who's correct in a few weeks.
And... final point... it's worth remembering Edward Heath called a snap election in 1974 confident of a bigger majority but ended up with a hung parliament... just saying!
Nor had Heath just been made PM after a Leave referendum result etc.
Quantum uncertainty meets politics!
And the likelihood of anything other than a larger Conservative majority is....?
Polls and odds have been poor indicators where a result was in the balance, any near zero problem has its...problems. Is this GE one of those situations though?
jjlynn27 said:
Mario149 said:
And yet as far as I can tell, anyone who's ever worked in trade in the EU is saying it's still going to take years (7+) to finalize and get anything in place and even then it won't be nearly as good. I'll happily take everything with a pinch of salt, but when you have those that have worked in the area saying one thing, and a few politicians who haven't saying another, I'm going to go with the people who have experience in the area.
You are pessimist remoaner. Making deals is easy. And if they don't accept that we hold all the cards, we'll walk. That'll teach them. We'll concentrate on Commonwealth, where they are just waiting to do the best, the most beautiful deal with/for us because of shared history and everything. If they don't play ball, we'll send them few black belt six sigma and few purple belt kaizen specialists to explain to them systemic risks and outcomes built into the unwillingness to accept a deal presented to them. https://www.ft.com/content/f224b684-2513-11e7-8691...
https://www.ft.com/content/5fef7796-1914-11e7-a53d...
Edited by jjlynn27 on Friday 21st April 12:31
Yet continues to completely ignore the objective reasoning within posts that he disagrees with, instead persistently going for personal attacks based on the most limited knowledge of the person he's attacking, crossing entirely unrelated topics with vitriol based on the flimsiest of causes, and never once backing up your assertions with anything approaching logic or rationale.
I've had many debates in this part of Pistonheads, with posters who hold entirely different views to my own. Regarding Brexit, that includes MrrT, AJD, SilverSixer, jonnyb, mario149 and others I hope won't be offended I've not mentioned them.
Not once have I made a personal insult.
So I hope it's clear quite how odious you must be for me to type (and these will be the last words I type aimed at you):
f
k off, you utter waste of oxygen , you have less to offer this forum and world than the pondslime I scraped off my wellies last night. Enjoy the bitter remains of your existence, knowing that you'll take perverse delight in having finally wound up sufficiently an otherwise reasonable person. fk you.jjlynn27 said:
You are pessimist remoaner.
Note, you said that.... jjlynn27 said:
Making deals is easy.
Is it? I don't agree. But equally, making deals is not impossible, especially if, as has been made clear, both sides intend to do a deal. jjlynn27 said:
And if they don't accept that we hold all the cards, we'll walk. That'll teach them.
We don't hold all the cards. Who said we did? you have just made that up! What IS true is that we do have some cards, and they are not inconsiderable. jjlynn27 said:
We'll concentrate on Commonwealth, where they are just waiting to do the best, the most beautiful deal with/for us because of shared history and everything.
Certainly some Commonwealth countries are eager to do a deal. Likewise some non Commonwealth countries such as the USA... Not sure what your point is here?jjlynn27 said:
If they don't play ball, we'll send them few black belt six sigma and few purple belt kaizen specialists to explain to them systemic risks and outcomes built into the unwillingness to accept a deal presented to them.
....which would be unnecessarily confrontational and certainly not conducive to any kind of constructive result. You do seem to have an aggressive approach to this kind of thing - large scale deals are rarely negotiated in such an atmosphere. Best leave it to those that understand these things eh? jjlynn27 said:
https://www.ft.com/content/f224b684-2513-11e7-8691...
https://www.ft.com/content/5fef7796-1914-11e7-a53d...
Paywall, sorry cannot read linkshttps://www.ft.com/content/5fef7796-1914-11e7-a53d...
andymadmak said:
jjlynn27 said:
Paywall, sorry cannot read linksSway said:
Ah JJ. The poster who built up such a reputation under his original pseudonym he changed it...
Yet continues to completely ignore the objective reasoning within posts that he disagrees with, instead persistently going for personal attacks based on the most limited knowledge of the person he's attacking, crossing entirely unrelated topics with vitriol based on the flimsiest of causes, and never once backing up your assertions with anything approaching logic or rationale.
I've had many debates in this part of Pistonheads, with posters who hold entirely different views to my own. Regarding Brexit, that includes MrrT, AJD, SilverSixer, jonnyb, mario149 and others I hope won't be offended I've not mentioned them.
Not once have I made a personal insult.
So I hope it's clear quite how odious you must be for me to type (and these will be the last words I type aimed at you):
fk off, you utter waste of oxygen , you have less to offer this forum and world than the pondslime I scraped off my wellies last night. Enjoy the bitter remains of your existence, knowing that you'll take perverse delight in having finally wound up sufficiently an otherwise reasonable person. fk you.
You don't debate. You made a ridiculous statement about being able to make 30%-50% savings on £100b budget without affecting services. You then get mocked for it. Predictably, you 'systemicly' throw toys out of the pram. Yet continues to completely ignore the objective reasoning within posts that he disagrees with, instead persistently going for personal attacks based on the most limited knowledge of the person he's attacking, crossing entirely unrelated topics with vitriol based on the flimsiest of causes, and never once backing up your assertions with anything approaching logic or rationale.
I've had many debates in this part of Pistonheads, with posters who hold entirely different views to my own. Regarding Brexit, that includes MrrT, AJD, SilverSixer, jonnyb, mario149 and others I hope won't be offended I've not mentioned them.
Not once have I made a personal insult.
So I hope it's clear quite how odious you must be for me to type (and these will be the last words I type aimed at you):
f
k off, you utter waste of oxygen , you have less to offer this forum and world than the pondslime I scraped off my wellies last night. Enjoy the bitter remains of your existence, knowing that you'll take perverse delight in having finally wound up sufficiently an otherwise reasonable person. fk you.As for your little 'reasonable person' rant at the end; pffft.
turbobloke said:
First headline is about Brussels starting to freeze Britain out of EU contracts, the second is about India denting UK trade hopes with a lapsed deal, this sample of one supposedly telling us not to rely on the Commonwealth (were we?).
Ahh, OK, thanks. That being said, is it really a surprise that the EU starts to freeze us out? It just means that we should probably be saying that our contributions should also reduce over the period....Interesting on the India thing. If google is to be believed the FT article is from the 4th April.. This one from the Telegraph, dated 9th April paints a slightly different picture...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/09/post-br...
andymadmak said:
Interesting on the India thing. If google is to be believed the FT article is from the 4th April.. This one from the Telegraph, dated 9th April paints a slightly different picture...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/09/post-br...
The FT article at the URL as posted says " April 5, 2017 by: Kiran Stacey in New Delhi" but it could have been updated without reference - or be a new version.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/09/post-br...
Thanks for the DT link, definitely a different take on things from the pink(o)'un.
andymadmak said:
Ahh, OK, thanks. That being said, is it really a surprise that the EU starts to freeze us out? It just means that we should probably be saying that our contributions should also reduce over the period....
Interesting on the India thing. If google is to be believed the FT article is from the 4th April.. This one from the Telegraph, dated 9th April paints a slightly different picture...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/09/post-br...
Would you expect anything else from Telegraph quoting from Researchgate? Interesting on the India thing. If google is to be believed the FT article is from the 4th April.. This one from the Telegraph, dated 9th April paints a slightly different picture...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/09/post-br...
Actions speak louder than words. They didn't let bilateral investment treaty lapse by accident.
The value of trade with India has fallen in recent years, despite high-level efforts by the UK to 'reinvigorate the trade'. From colleagues in India, and that's obviously just anecdotal experience/evidence, they are pretty pissed about visas and perception that they are very reluctantly allowed to come to the UK.
jjlynn27 said:
andymadmak said:
Ahh, OK, thanks. That being said, is it really a surprise that the EU starts to freeze us out? It just means that we should probably be saying that our contributions should also reduce over the period....
Interesting on the India thing. If google is to be believed the FT article is from the 4th April.. This one from the Telegraph, dated 9th April paints a slightly different picture...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/09/post-br...
Would you expect anything else from Telegraph quoting from Researchgate? Interesting on the India thing. If google is to be believed the FT article is from the 4th April.. This one from the Telegraph, dated 9th April paints a slightly different picture...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/09/post-br...
Actions speak louder than words. They didn't let bilateral investment treaty lapse by accident.
The value of trade with India has fallen in recent years, despite high-level efforts by the UK to 'reinvigorate the trade'. From colleagues in India, and that's obviously just anecdotal experience/evidence, they are pretty pissed about visas and perception that they are very reluctantly allowed to come to the UK.
Earlier this month The Guardian said:
‘We are open to Indians’ chancellor says during Delhi trip, adding that pledge to reduce immigration will affect other countries with less-skilled workers.
Phillip Hammond said on Tuesday that the brunt of the government’s pledge to shrink net migration to the “tens of thousands” would be felt by countries with less-skilled labour, rather than by India, whose citizens currently receive 60% of the work visas granted by the UK government.
Phillip Hammond said on Tuesday that the brunt of the government’s pledge to shrink net migration to the “tens of thousands” would be felt by countries with less-skilled labour, rather than by India, whose citizens currently receive 60% of the work visas granted by the UK government.
turbobloke said:
Earlier this month The Guardian said:
‘We are open to Indians’ chancellor says during Delhi trip, adding that pledge to reduce immigration will affect other countries with less-skilled workers.
Phillip Hammond said on Tuesday that the brunt of the government’s pledge to shrink net migration to the “tens of thousands” would be felt by countries with less-skilled labour, rather than by India, whose citizens currently receive 60% of the work visas granted by the UK government.
Phillip Hammond said on Tuesday that the brunt of the government’s pledge to shrink net migration to the “tens of thousands” would be felt by countries with less-skilled labour, rather than by India, whose citizens currently receive 60% of the work visas granted by the UK government.
dw said:
"Against this backdrop, we remain less sanguine about a post-Brexit UK and India free trade deal, unless the issue of mobility is addressed," Sumedh Deorukhkar, Asia economist at BBVA Research, told DW.
"With both economies being predominantly services oriented, freedom of movement of people lies at the core of striking a free trade deal on services," he added.
"With both economies being predominantly services oriented, freedom of movement of people lies at the core of striking a free trade deal on services," he added.
New Zealand former agriculture minister said:
Brexit supporters under-estimating challenges of market access - New Zealand perspective
Citing the difficulties New Zealand has faced in establishing trade deals over the years, he told Farmers Guardian: “I suspect it is going to be far more difficult than most agricultural producers in the UK realise.”
“Since Britain joined the EU spent, we have spent 40 or 50 years negotiating access to all sorts of markets around the world and all of them have taken a long time. We have never gained easy access, except perhaps to Australia,” Mr Carter said.
"The first thing you do when you negotiate an FTA is to establish the principles, including the protocols and the phyto-sanitary requirements and they are never as straightforward as everybody thinks they are," he said.
"The requirements that can be required by some markets impose great demand on our processors here in New Zealand and therefor on our primary sector."
“Farmers voting to come out of the EU under-estimate the challenges they will face in the future,” he said.
Anyhow this is getting too off-topic. Citing the difficulties New Zealand has faced in establishing trade deals over the years, he told Farmers Guardian: “I suspect it is going to be far more difficult than most agricultural producers in the UK realise.”
“Since Britain joined the EU spent, we have spent 40 or 50 years negotiating access to all sorts of markets around the world and all of them have taken a long time. We have never gained easy access, except perhaps to Australia,” Mr Carter said.
"The first thing you do when you negotiate an FTA is to establish the principles, including the protocols and the phyto-sanitary requirements and they are never as straightforward as everybody thinks they are," he said.
"The requirements that can be required by some markets impose great demand on our processors here in New Zealand and therefor on our primary sector."
“Farmers voting to come out of the EU under-estimate the challenges they will face in the future,” he said.
footnote said:
Rich_W said:
footnote said:
2. I think it's just as hypocritical and patronising to be told now what Brexit obviously meant when nobody knew what it meant (and still don't) at the time of the referendum.
So how could YOU possibly know what you were voting for with a Remain vote?They said before the referendum "There is no plan for an EU army" You voted Remain apparently also believing that (I can see why you might, given you trust the EU so fully)
However, NOW there is a plan for just a thing. at the moment "a defence union" but the signs are it would try and outgrow that remit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eur...
You claim Brexiters didn't know what they were voting for. WE had a much better idea than the Remain camp. I know whats coming. YOu have no idea hat latest folly the EUC has in store for the remaining countries
Sway said:
What's the average lead time for an FTA where those prior conditions are already in existence?
I agree with you.I'll suggest that given the EUC just want every and any bodies money. I guess they just rubber stamp any country that wants to join, without the relevant due diligence
Hence why it's in such a financial mess down south!In other news. And widely ignored by our "pro Remain" overlords at the BBC
Hungary have said a good Brexit deal would involve free trade.
Yes they have their eye on the money UK based Hungarians send home, but it's a start (and their women can be super hot!
) AND Hungary has become increasingly anti-EU of latehttp://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/20/latest-hun...
(Feel free to Try and find an other link if you can)
Rich_W said:
So is what we have in 2016 EXACTLY the same as what we had in 1980? 1990? 2001? Did you, me or anyone else get a say when it all changed? When did the so called "4 freedoms" come in from? A vote for those?
They said before the referendum "There is no plan for an EU army" You voted Remain apparently also believing that (I can see why you might, given you trust the EU so fully)
However, NOW there is a plan for just a thing. at the moment "a defence union" but the signs are it would try and outgrow that remit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eur...
You claim Brexiters didn't know what they were voting for. WE had a much better idea than the Remain camp. I know whats coming. YOu have no idea hat latest folly the EUC has in store for the remaining countries
Well, if you knew anything about anything, you'd know that the four freedoms come from the Treaty of Rome (1957) establishing the EEC. And we had a vote on that in 1975 after we joined. A vote in favour.They said before the referendum "There is no plan for an EU army" You voted Remain apparently also believing that (I can see why you might, given you trust the EU so fully)
However, NOW there is a plan for just a thing. at the moment "a defence union" but the signs are it would try and outgrow that remit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eur...
You claim Brexiters didn't know what they were voting for. WE had a much better idea than the Remain camp. I know whats coming. YOu have no idea hat latest folly the EUC has in store for the remaining countries
As for your claim that you know what's coming....... Words fail me. No-one knows what's coming, except that we'll have a worse deal in terms of trading with the EU than we have now. As for trading with anyone else, who knows either.
As for the European army - it wasn't going to happen whilst we were fully fledged members of the EU. Now that we're on the way out, the remaining 27 will do what they think is in their best interests. No-one here in the UK can have any beef about that.
Rich_W said:
footnote said:
Rich_W said:
footnote said:
2. I think it's just as hypocritical and patronising to be told now what Brexit obviously meant when nobody knew what it meant (and still don't) at the time of the referendum.
So how could YOU possibly know what you were voting for with a Remain vote?ou sont les biscuits said:
Well, if you knew anything about anything, you'd know that the four freedoms come from the Treaty of Rome (1957) establishing the EEC. And we had a vote on that in 1975 after we joined. A vote in favour.
As for your claim that you know what's coming....... Words fail me. No-one knows what's coming, except that we'll have a worse deal in terms of trading with the EU than we have now. As for trading with anyone else, who knows either.
As for the European army - it wasn't going to happen whilst we were fully fledged members of the EU. Now that we're on the way out, the remaining 27 will do what they think is in their best interests. No-one here in the UK can have any beef about that.
Indeed. So many misconceptions. As for your claim that you know what's coming....... Words fail me. No-one knows what's coming, except that we'll have a worse deal in terms of trading with the EU than we have now. As for trading with anyone else, who knows either.
As for the European army - it wasn't going to happen whilst we were fully fledged members of the EU. Now that we're on the way out, the remaining 27 will do what they think is in their best interests. No-one here in the UK can have any beef about that.
One the consequences of Brexit is that an EU army is now much more likely. It is interesting to see that even when we leave, it seems that will wind some up. We spend years successfully ensuring it never really got off the ground in the EU, now that UK influence has gone - influence some would it seems have supported and will now miss, but it was either not understood or taken for granted.
///ajd said:
ou sont les biscuits said:
Well, if you knew anything about anything, you'd know that the four freedoms come from the Treaty of Rome (1957) establishing the EEC. And we had a vote on that in 1975 after we joined. A vote in favour.
As for your claim that you know what's coming....... Words fail me. No-one knows what's coming, except that we'll have a worse deal in terms of trading with the EU than we have now. As for trading with anyone else, who knows either.
As for the European army - it wasn't going to happen whilst we were fully fledged members of the EU. Now that we're on the way out, the remaining 27 will do what they think is in their best interests. No-one here in the UK can have any beef about that.
Indeed. So many misconceptions. As for your claim that you know what's coming....... Words fail me. No-one knows what's coming, except that we'll have a worse deal in terms of trading with the EU than we have now. As for trading with anyone else, who knows either.
As for the European army - it wasn't going to happen whilst we were fully fledged members of the EU. Now that we're on the way out, the remaining 27 will do what they think is in their best interests. No-one here in the UK can have any beef about that.
One the consequences of Brexit is that an EU army is now much more likely. It is interesting to see that even when we leave, it seems that will wind some up. We spend years successfully ensuring it never really got off the ground in the EU, now that UK influence has gone - influence some would it seems have supported and will now miss, but it was either not understood or taken for granted.
///ajd said:
ou sont les biscuits said:
Well, if you knew anything about anything, you'd know that the four freedoms come from the Treaty of Rome (1957) establishing the EEC. And we had a vote on that in 1975 after we joined. A vote in favour.
As for your claim that you know what's coming....... Words fail me. No-one knows what's coming, except that we'll have a worse deal in terms of trading with the EU than we have now. As for trading with anyone else, who knows either.
As for the European army - it wasn't going to happen whilst we were fully fledged members of the EU. Now that we're on the way out, the remaining 27 will do what they think is in their best interests. No-one here in the UK can have any beef about that.
Indeed. So many misconceptions. As for your claim that you know what's coming....... Words fail me. No-one knows what's coming, except that we'll have a worse deal in terms of trading with the EU than we have now. As for trading with anyone else, who knows either.
As for the European army - it wasn't going to happen whilst we were fully fledged members of the EU. Now that we're on the way out, the remaining 27 will do what they think is in their best interests. No-one here in the UK can have any beef about that.
One the consequences of Brexit is that an EU army is now much more likely. It is interesting to see that even when we leave, it seems that will wind some up. We spend years successfully ensuring it never really got off the ground in the EU, now that UK influence has gone - influence some would it seems have supported and will now miss, but it was either not understood or taken for granted.
What? The UK, the (ex) EU country with the CMD influence of zilch.
Previously, on Slasher Channel ///ajd, the EU Army was (you TOLD us) a non-starter!
Slasher you'd better change your username to MrMakeItUpAsIGoAlongToSuitMyAgenda
Pathetic.
It's the weekend. Do something normal folk do. Are you going shopping? Wash the car?
I'm (off) out.
Can I just add some balance to some of the point scoring ....
I'm a 'leaver' but I do recognise that the recent economic increase and rise in the Stock market for british based businesses has not really been about Brexit future as such..... the main reason was the drop in value of the pound against the dollar.
So I still accept that the UK economy may have a downturn for a number of years once we have cut ties with the EU and once we may well be on world trade tariffs and struggling to sign trade deals with the rest of the world..... BUT, I think I may be correct in saying that many people who voted leave did expect a number of years of 'pain' before things start to improve.
This is the 'price' we pay for keeping our private voting ability (democracy) to hold any sort of meaningful value. As to stay in the EU means that our GE votes would count for precisely Jack-Schmidt.
When laws and parliament are governed by Brussels it makes our Westminster parliament nothing more than a lame duck with no power over the nations future prosperity.
I am hoping the years of 'pain' may not materialise, and I hope that the UK strikes a cheap access to the single market in order that those entangled in that market can still make profit.
A lot of 'hope' required of course, but I still see this as a better gamble than not having any say at all in my future within the UK that would have been governed by 27 other nation's interests rather than ours.
I'm a 'leaver' but I do recognise that the recent economic increase and rise in the Stock market for british based businesses has not really been about Brexit future as such..... the main reason was the drop in value of the pound against the dollar.
So I still accept that the UK economy may have a downturn for a number of years once we have cut ties with the EU and once we may well be on world trade tariffs and struggling to sign trade deals with the rest of the world..... BUT, I think I may be correct in saying that many people who voted leave did expect a number of years of 'pain' before things start to improve.
This is the 'price' we pay for keeping our private voting ability (democracy) to hold any sort of meaningful value. As to stay in the EU means that our GE votes would count for precisely Jack-Schmidt.
When laws and parliament are governed by Brussels it makes our Westminster parliament nothing more than a lame duck with no power over the nations future prosperity.
I am hoping the years of 'pain' may not materialise, and I hope that the UK strikes a cheap access to the single market in order that those entangled in that market can still make profit.
A lot of 'hope' required of course, but I still see this as a better gamble than not having any say at all in my future within the UK that would have been governed by 27 other nation's interests rather than ours.
Atomic12C said:
Can I just add some balance to some of the point scoring ....
I'm a 'leaver' but I do recognise that the recent economic increase and rise in the Stock market for british based businesses has not really been about Brexit future as such..... the main reason was the drop in value of the pound against the dollar.
So I still accept that the UK economy may have a downturn for a number of years once we have cut ties with the EU and once we may well be on world trade tariffs and struggling to sign trade deals with the rest of the world..... BUT, I think I may be correct in saying that many people who voted leave did expect a number of years of 'pain' before things start to improve.
.
That's ok to say-but who should bear the brunt of the pain?I'm a 'leaver' but I do recognise that the recent economic increase and rise in the Stock market for british based businesses has not really been about Brexit future as such..... the main reason was the drop in value of the pound against the dollar.
So I still accept that the UK economy may have a downturn for a number of years once we have cut ties with the EU and once we may well be on world trade tariffs and struggling to sign trade deals with the rest of the world..... BUT, I think I may be correct in saying that many people who voted leave did expect a number of years of 'pain' before things start to improve.
.
The government seems to be putting getting rid of free movement above tarriff free access to the single market because it was one of the main reasons that people voted for leave. So it's putting all of the country at risk of job losses etc for the reasons that a proportion of the 52% voted to leave. Is that fair? Is that the best form of Brexit for the whole country?
I posted a few months ago that when asked to "Get involved and help shape brexit" that there was no avenue for me to do so-the government was not giving parliament a say in the negotiating strategy and was basically doing what it felt like. Well now I do have a chance to have my say, and I'll be voting for the Lib Dems (I actually think a Cons/LD coalition would be the best form of government atm for the country). So in a roundabout way my answer to the OP's question is yes.
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