Should remainers vote for the Libs?

[B'stard Child]

crankedup said:

That number of PH who. are regular contributions onto this forum 20/30.is a high percentage, Still wriggle around to find an excuse if you must.
Where did you find those percentages that you use? May I suggest that you are making them up perhaps and have no substance at all. Hairy chested ph directors change the record shock.

As credible as your statement regarding the whole of PH

[Atomic12C]

ou sont les biscuits said:

I think a fair number of people who voted leave are going to be fairly hacked off when attempts to control the numbers of immigrants fall short of expectations. A quick google would suggest that there are maybe 5 million people here with foreign passports, of which maybe a bit over 3 million are from the EU. Unemployment is historically low, and things I've read suggest that the economy is operating pretty close to full employment. So you could argue that the unemployment we have is mainly frictional. We depend on migration to fill holes in key areas that we can't fill ourselves because the supply of domestic workers just isn't there. Any thought that the government can somehow determine what the supply of labour from overseas should be fills me full of horror. They'll just cock it up and create shortages. I'd far rather let the market decide what labour they need, and hire it from wherever they want. Add to this the fact that the population is ageing........ more overseas labour will be required to maintain the status quo.

In short free movement of labour within the EU is something I don't have a problem with. I think that it's something our economy currently depends on, and I can't see that changing in the short to medium term. I just wish the government had the balls to be up front about it.

I think you are fundamentally missing the point of a 'leave voters' position on 'immigration' and numbers.

Once out of the EU the UK should be in a position to control who can reside within the UK.
It will (or should) have more powers to remove people from the UK that should not be here.

When it comes to the economy and jobs, then if there are positions that require skilled labour or positions that require foreign work forces to fill gaps in the jobs market, then surely the UK government would be in a position to allow that to happen. (Given a balance of benefit to society I'd assume - meaning how likely that imported labour is to adversely affect infrastructure or services etc.).

But the main difference would be that there would not simply be an 'open door' approach whereby any number of EU nationals can choose to live in the UK and continue the 'economic migration' away from the poorer EU members towards the richer EU members.

And its that final point that is carrying a heavy burden within the EU project.
This was before Merkel invited the rest of the world in to the EU.

[ou sont les biscuits]

Have a go at sorting out the quoting and I'll have a stab at answering

[crankedup]

B'stard Child said:

crankedup said:

That number of PH who. are regular contributions onto this forum 20/30.is a high percentage, Still wriggle around to find an excuse if you must.
Where did you find those percentages that you use? May I suggest that you are making them up perhaps and have no substance at all. Hairy chested ph directors change the record shock.

As credible as your statement regarding the whole of PH

Sorry I can't let that go, at no time have I said 'the whole of PH.
But whichever way it's cut it still shows the hypocritical nature of hairy chested ph posters.

[B'stard Child]

crankedup said:

B'stard Child said:

crankedup said:

That number of PH who. are regular contributions onto this forum 20/30.is a high percentage, Still wriggle around to find an excuse if you must.
Where did you find those percentages that you use? May I suggest that you are making them up perhaps and have no substance at all. Hairy chested ph directors change the record shock.

As credible as your statement regarding the whole of PH

Sorry I can't let that go, at no time have I said 'the whole of PH.
But whichever way it's cut it still shows the hypocritical nature of hairy chested ph posters.

Oh it's one of those we are clocking in for the full half hour

You said for "PH to consider" PH being Pistonheads - that infers all?

[citizensm1th]

My first thought when our great leader called this election was to vote liberal, however after thinking about it for a while i think for remainers and the left in this country a conservative victory will in the long term be a good thing.

The chances of the outcome of brexit being all things to all sides are practically zero

For leavers there will be compromises that sections of brexiteers will not be happy with and the same for remainers, who ever is in power in the next 2 to 4 years is going to be criticised from both sides

A given i am not convinced it is going to be a happy separation from the EU and that it will have consequences for both our economy and our society that i dont believe will be for the good i cant wait for our new tory government.

a poison chalice indeed

[crankedup]

B'stard Child said:

crankedup said:

B'stard Child said:

crankedup said:

That number of PH who. are regular contributions onto this forum 20/30.is a high percentage, Still wriggle around to find an excuse if you must.
Where did you find those percentages that you use? May I suggest that you are making them up perhaps and have no substance at all. Hairy chested ph directors change the record shock.

As credible as your statement regarding the whole of PH

Sorry I can't let that go, at no time have I said 'the whole of PH.
But whichever way it's cut it still shows the hypocritical nature of hairy chested ph posters.

Oh it's one of those we are clocking in for the full half hour

You said for "PH to consider" PH being Pistonheads - that infers all?

Fair enough, I should have been more explicit and accurate, but most rational people would take my point, it then again it is Ph and I should have known better.

[crankedup]

citizensm1th said:

My first thought when our great leader called this election was to vote liberal, however after thinking about it for a while i think for remainers and the left in this country a conservative victory will in the long term be a good thing.

The chances of the outcome of brexit being all things to all sides are practically zero

For leavers there will be compromises that sections of brexiteers will not be happy with and the same for remainers, who ever is in power in the next 2 to 4 years is going to be criticised from both sides

A given i am not convinced it is going to be a happy separation from the EU and that it will have consequences for both our economy and our society that i dont believe will be for the good i cant wait for our new tory government.

a poison chalice indeed

Perhaps the easiest way of acceptance regarding brexit 'out' voters is to recall that the electorate were deceived by the Government at the time asking us to vote in/out of the common market. Deception never forgotten?

[B'stard Child]

crankedup said:

B'stard Child said:

crankedup said:

B'stard Child said:

crankedup said:

That number of PH who. are regular contributions onto this forum 20/30.is a high percentage, Still wriggle around to find an excuse if you must.
Where did you find those percentages that you use? May I suggest that you are making them up perhaps and have no substance at all. Hairy chested ph directors change the record shock.

As credible as your statement regarding the whole of PH

Sorry I can't let that go, at no time have I said 'the whole of PH.
But whichever way it's cut it still shows the hypocritical nature of hairy chested ph posters.

Oh it's one of those we are clocking in for the full half hour

You said for "PH to consider" PH being Pistonheads - that infers all?

Fair enough, I should have been more explicit and accurate, but most rational people would take my point, it then again it is Ph and I should have known better.

You said "most rational people" clearly you are calling me irrational?


Nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on PH - thanks

[citizensm1th]

crankedup said:

Perhaps the easiest way of acceptance regarding brexit 'out' voters is to recall that the electorate were deceived by the Government at the time asking us to vote in/out of the common market. Deception never forgotten?

I will never accept brexit was the correct result, Im sure if the result had been reversed neither would brexiteers.

it is how ever what it is and i will enjoy sitting back and watching events unfold. the electorate is a fickle beast and if it dosnt feel that brexit has made life better it will turn and bite those who it feels has sold it a pup.

Those who drove the brexit band wagon had better hope britian rides a wave of economic growth after brexit has concluded

[PRTVR]

citizensm1th said:

crankedup said:

Perhaps the easiest way of acceptance regarding brexit 'out' voters is to recall that the electorate were deceived by the Government at the time asking us to vote in/out of the common market. Deception never forgotten?

I will never accept brexit was the correct result, Im sure if the result had been reversed neither would brexiteers.

it is how ever what it is and i will enjoy sitting back and watching events unfold. the electorate is a fickle beast and if it dosnt feel that brexit has made life better it will turn and bite those who it feels has sold it a pup.

Those who drove the brexit band wagon had better hope britian rides a wave of economic growth after brexit has concluded

The problem with your theory is that we were told things would get a lot worse, I do not remember being told it would be a land of milk and honey and still they voted to leave, you did read the pamphlet sent out by the government didn't you ?

[herewego]

citizensm1th said:

crankedup said:

Perhaps the easiest way of acceptance regarding brexit 'out' voters is to recall that the electorate were deceived by the Government at the time asking us to vote in/out of the common market. Deception never forgotten?

I will never accept brexit was the correct result, Im sure if the result had been reversed neither would brexiteers.

it is how ever what it is and i will enjoy sitting back and watching events unfold. the electorate is a fickle beast and if it dosnt feel that brexit has made life better it will turn and bite those who it feels has sold it a pup.

Those who drove the brexit band wagon had better hope britian rides a wave of economic growth after brexit has concluded

What is the punishment to be? Do you think more likely they will go to gaol or be punished with lordships and knighthoods?

[blindswelledrat]

citizensm1th said:

I . the electorate is a fickle beast and if it dosnt feel that brexit has made life better it will turn and bite those who it feels has sold it a pup.

I disagree. I think if Brexit isn't the rosy future people imagine, they will blame circumstance and remainers. I don't think anything imaginable could happen to make the average Brexit voter think that they made the wrong choice.

[Justayellowbadge]

blindswelledrat said:

I disagree. I think if Brexit isn't the rosy future people imagine, they will blame circumstance and remainers. I don't think anything imaginable could happen to make the average Brexit voter think that they made the wrong choice.

I'd say the 'average brexit voter' is probably still in wait and see mode.

People talk about brexiteers and remainers as if there are simply two tribes, diametrically opposed.

I suspect about 80% of the population are clustered around a centre point with 10% outlyiing on either side - it's the minority making all the noise.

[crankedup]

citizensm1th said:

crankedup said:

Perhaps the easiest way of acceptance regarding brexit 'out' voters is to recall that the electorate were deceived by the Government at the time asking us to vote in/out of the common market. Deception never forgotten?

I will never accept brexit was the correct result, Im sure if the result had been reversed neither would brexiteers.

it is how ever what it is and i will enjoy sitting back and watching events unfold. the electorate is a fickle beast and if it dosnt feel that brexit has made life better it will turn and bite those who it feels has sold it a pup.

Those who drove the brexit band wagon had better hope britian rides a wave of economic growth after brexit has concluded

All any of us can do is make the best of what we have, I voted to leave as I honestly believe it is the correct course for our Country. I do not believe that politicians particularly drove the brexit wagon, imo millions of ordinary folk wanted out of the eu for decades. Eventually politicians had to offer the referendum such was the feeling of resentment of the eu by the anti eu folk.

With countries such as Romania and Bulgaria now becoming active in the eu I see them as economic drains on the UK.

Our exit will take a couple of generations of hard work and enthusiaiam to work through benefits.

[crankedup]

Justayellowbadge said:

blindswelledrat said:

I disagree. I think if Brexit isn't the rosy future people imagine, they will blame circumstance and remainers. I don't think anything imaginable could happen to make the average Brexit voter think that they made the wrong choice.

I'd say the 'average brexit voter' is probably still in wait and see mode.

People talk about brexiteers and remainers as if there are simply two tribes, diametrically opposed.

I suspect about 80% of the population are clustered around a centre point with 10% outlyiing on either side - it's the minority making all the noise.

Very true, even on National media the 'remain camp' have accepted the decision, we are leaving the eu. Apart from just a few dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy.

[ou sont les biscuits]

crankedup said:

Very true, even on National media the 'remain camp' have accepted the decision, we are leaving the eu. Apart from just a few dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy.

I think that it's you who doesn't understand democracy. In a democracy, people have the right to oppose policies and actions espoused by any party, movement or government. Even if they have majority support.

TM is promoting grammar schools. I don't agree with selection. If she gets a big majority at the election am I just supposed to fall into line?

[crankedup]

ou sont les biscuits said:

crankedup said:

Very true, even on National media the 'remain camp' have accepted the decision, we are leaving the eu. Apart from just a few dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy.

I think that it's you who doesn't understand democracy. In a democracy, people have the right to oppose policies and actions espoused by any party, movement or government. Even if they have majority support.

TM is promoting grammar schools. I don't agree with selection. If she gets a big majority at the election am I just supposed to fall into line?

Where have I said that protests are disallowed?
In my Country we elect a Political Party to govern the Country, that Government has the mandate to carry through its manifesto from which it was elected. IF the Tories win in the forthcoming GE then they will have the mandate to negotiate the best exit deal possible from the eu.
As you mention, TM is advocating grammar schools, again if the Tories win the GE they will almost certainly push through this policy idea. Nobody has to fall in line, we all have the option to demonstrate and protest, long may this continue. However, it is the Government that generally wins through and introduces those policies. But not always, I recall the poll tax protests which resulted in a Tory Government withdrawing the poll tax reforms.
I believe that my understanding of our democracy is sound.

[Likes Fast Cars]

ou sont les biscuits said:

crankedup said:

Very true, even on National media the 'remain camp' have accepted the decision, we are leaving the eu. Apart from just a few dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy.

I think that it's you who doesn't understand democracy. In a democracy, people have the right to oppose policies and actions espoused by any party, movement or government. Even if they have majority support.

TM is promoting grammar schools. I don't agree with selection. If she gets a big majority at the election am I just supposed to fall into line?

But what other option do you have? You can vote against it at the next election like everyone who doesn't agree with the policies.
Let's say if Labour wins and taxes the living daylights out of people and people don't want to "fall into line" with paying more tax. Should they just all say go to hell, we're not paying, screw you? (Impractical because the govt / HMRC will pursue them through the courts).

It's not a matter of falling into line on say grammar schools, you do have a choice, use them or use another form of educational institution.

Unfortunately it's about compromise.

[ou sont les biscuits]

crankedup said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

crankedup said:

Very true, even on National media the 'remain camp' have accepted the decision, we are leaving the eu. Apart from just a few dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy.

I think that it's you who doesn't understand democracy. In a democracy, people have the right to oppose policies and actions espoused by any party, movement or government. Even if they have majority support.

TM is promoting grammar schools. I don't agree with selection. If she gets a big majority at the election am I just supposed to fall into line?

Where have I said that protests are disallowed?
In my Country we elect a Political Party to govern the Country, that Government has the mandate to carry through its manifesto from which it was elected. IF the Tories win in the forthcoming GE then they will have the mandate to negotiate the best exit deal possible from the eu.
As you mention, TM is advocating grammar schools, again if the Tories win the GE they will almost certainly push through this policy idea. Nobody has to fall in line, we all have the option to demonstrate and protest, long may this continue. However, it is the Government that generally wins through and introduces those policies. But not always, I recall the poll tax protests which resulted in a Tory Government withdrawing the poll tax reforms.
I believe that my understanding of our democracy is sound.

OK, so who are these dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy and why are they being undemocratic?