Should remainers vote for the Libs?

[boyse7en]

ou sont les biscuits said:

crankedup said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

crankedup said:

Very true, even on National media the 'remain camp' have accepted the decision, we are leaving the eu. Apart from just a few dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy.

I think that it's you who doesn't understand democracy. In a democracy, people have the right to oppose policies and actions espoused by any party, movement or government. Even if they have majority support.

TM is promoting grammar schools. I don't agree with selection. If she gets a big majority at the election am I just supposed to fall into line?

Where have I said that protests are disallowed?
In my Country we elect a Political Party to govern the Country, that Government has the mandate to carry through its manifesto from which it was elected. IF the Tories win in the forthcoming GE then they will have the mandate to negotiate the best exit deal possible from the eu.
As you mention, TM is advocating grammar schools, again if the Tories win the GE they will almost certainly push through this policy idea. Nobody has to fall in line, we all have the option to demonstrate and protest, long may this continue. However, it is the Government that generally wins through and introduces those policies. But not always, I recall the poll tax protests which resulted in a Tory Government withdrawing the poll tax reforms.
I believe that my understanding of our democracy is sound.

OK, so who are these dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy and why are they being undemocratic?

I'm wondering as well.

[vsonix]

ou sont les biscuits said:

Have a go at sorting out the quoting and I'll have a stab at answering

Blame the site, it's glitching badly at the moment.

[crankedup]

boyse7en said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

crankedup said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

crankedup said:

Very true, even on National media the 'remain camp' have accepted the decision, we are leaving the eu. Apart from just a few dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy.

I think that it's you who doesn't understand democracy. In a democracy, people have the right to oppose policies and actions espoused by any party, movement or government. Even if they have majority support.

TM is promoting grammar schools. I don't agree with selection. If she gets a big majority at the election am I just supposed to fall into line?

Where have I said that protests are disallowed?
In my Country we elect a Political Party to govern the Country, that Government has the mandate to carry through its manifesto from which it was elected. IF the Tories win in the forthcoming GE then they will have the mandate to negotiate the best exit deal possible from the eu.
As you mention, TM is advocating grammar schools, again if the Tories win the GE they will almost certainly push through this policy idea. Nobody has to fall in line, we all have the option to demonstrate and protest, long may this continue. However, it is the Government that generally wins through and introduces those policies. But not always, I recall the poll tax protests which resulted in a Tory Government withdrawing the poll tax reforms.
I believe that my understanding of our democracy is sound.

OK, so who are these dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy and why are they being undemocratic?

I'm wondering as well.

Let me start by saying this, the referendum on brexit was held, it was a vote to either stay in the eu OR leave. The electorate voted to leave.
It was not a referendum to vote :
if we leave can we change our minds
if we leave can we pick the best bits of the eu and ditch the bits we don't like
if we leave can we have another vote on what the leave deal looks like!!!!!

Accepting that is the referendum deal we have the Lib Dems openly denouncing the leave vote and threatened to block the will of the people by not agreeing the terms and conditions of the 'leave deal'. They are also mandating a second vote of the leave deal in thier election campaign, led by thier leader, Tim Farron. The Labour Party have rowed back somewhat but still want a referendum regarding the leave deal that the Government negotiate.
These actions and words from those politicians are attempting to manipulate the referendum outcome, this is against the will of the majority of the electorate in reference to the brexit referendum.
The electorate voted to leave the eu, we now must trust the elected Government to deliver the wishes of the electorate majority

Edited by crankedup on Thursday 27th April 12:05

[PRTVR]

vsonix said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

Have a go at sorting out the quoting and I'll have a stab at answering

Blame the site, it's glitching badly at the moment.

Just look at the last visit bar it's gone from blue to red , the sites turning socialist

[B'stard Child]

ou sont les biscuits said:

OK, so who are these dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy and why are they being undemocratic?

Shall we start a list?

Tony Blair

Feel free to add others to the list

[amusingduck]

B'stard Child said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

OK, so who are these dishonourable politicians who have forgotten the meaning of democracy and why are they being undemocratic?

Shall we start a list?

Tony Blair

Feel free to add others to the list

Nicola Sturgeon

[B'stard Child]

OK list so far......

Tony Blair
Nicola Sturgeon
PH'r "esxste"


Any more?

[Sway]

blindswelledrat said:

citizensm1th said:

I . the electorate is a fickle beast and if it dosnt feel that brexit has made life better it will turn and bite those who it feels has sold it a pup.

I disagree. I think if Brexit isn't the rosy future people imagine, they will blame circumstance and remainers. I don't think anything imaginable could happen to make the average Brexit voter think that they made the wrong choice.

The same can be said for 'the average remain voter' - the full post you partially quoted started with 'nothing will ever persuade me Leave was the right decision', so presumably even if the path out is one to a land of milk, honey, prosperity and enrichment said poster would still consider it to have been despite Brexit rather than because of it.

Of course, when talking long timescales and macro economics, there are very few things that in isolation have clear cause:effect calculable impacts - see the challenge the Remain campaign had in trying to define the financial benefits claimed as a result of our membership...

[Bill]

crankedup said:

Let me start by saying this, the referendum on brexit was held, it was a vote to either stay in the eu OR leave. The electorate voted to leave.
It was not a referendum to vote :
if we leave can we change our minds
if we leave can we pick the best bits of the eu and ditch the bits we don't like
if we leave can we have another vote on what the leave deal looks like!!!!!

Accepting that is the referendum deal we have the Lib Dems openly denouncing the leave vote and threatened to block the will of the people by not agreeing the terms and conditions of the 'leave deal'. They are also mandating a second vote of the leave deal in thier election campaign, led by thier leader, Tim Farron. The Labour Party have rowed back somewhat but still want a referendum regarding the leave deal that the Government negotiate.
These actions and words from those politicians are attempting to manipulate the referendum outcome, this is against the will of the majority of the electorate in reference to the brexit referendum.
The electorate voted to leave the eu, we now must trust the elected Government to deliver the wishes of the electorate majority

It was also not a referendum to vote :
if we leave we can't change our minds
if we leave we can't pick the best bits of the eu and ditch the bits we don't like
if we leave we can't have another vote on what the leave deal looks like!!!!!

And if TM gets a good increase in seats she can consider that a mandate to do as she see fit. If the Lib Dems win (They won't...) that would be a mandate for them to do as they see fit.

Brexiters don't agree on precisely how we should leave so I don't see how you can claim that wanting a discussion is undemocratic. If anything more votes and discussion makes it more democratic.

[citizensm1th]

I find the idea that a national vote(GE) cannot trump a previous national vote (Ref) to ba absurd.

If that is the case then "Shirley" this last referendum cannot change the earlier one that took us in to the EU.

I await the ahhh butisms

[sidicks]

citizensm1th said:

I find the idea that a national vote(GE) cannot trump a previous national vote (Ref) to ba absurd.

If that is the case then "Shirley" this last referendum cannot change the earlier one that took us in to the EU.

I await the ahhh butisms

Which referendum took us into the EU?

[SilverSixer]

crankedup said:

The Labour Party have rowed back somewhat but still want a referendum regarding the leave deal that the Government negotiate.

Edited by crankedup on Thursday 27th April 12:05

This is untrue. The Labour party policy is not in favour of another referendum. Only LibDems are proposing this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39665835

[anonymous-user]

citizensm1th said:

I find the idea that a national vote(GE) cannot trump a previous national vote (Ref) to ba absurd.

If that is the case then "Shirley" this last referendum cannot change the earlier one that took us in to the EU.

I await the ahhh butisms

Ahhh but. . there wasn't a referendum.

[B'stard Child]

sidicks said:

citizensm1th said:

I find the idea that a national vote(GE) cannot trump a previous national vote (Ref) to ba absurd.

If that is the case then "Shirley" this last referendum cannot change the earlier one that took us in to the EU.

I await the ahhh butisms

Which referendum took us into the EU?

Shhhh - you'll never hook a fish with that tactic

[citizensm1th]

In 1975 we had a referendum to join the eec which due to our various governments agreement became the eu as you well know

Crap butism

[B'stard Child]

citizensm1th said:

In 1975 we had a referendum to join the eec which due to our various governments agreement became the eu as you well know

Crap butism

Indeed - we joined a common market

We didn't get a referendum on being a party to it morphing into the bloated ponzi scheme we know as the EU

[Likes Fast Cars]

B'stard Child said:

citizensm1th said:

In 1975 we had a referendum to join the eec which due to our various governments agreement became the eu as you well know

Crap butism

Indeed - we joined a common market

We didn't get a referendum on being a party to it morphing into the bloated ponzi scheme we know as the EU

Ponzi Scheme is a very apt description.

[jjlynn27]

It's interesting to see that some people still care how they voted in 1975. It's been a while. Let it go.

[Hayek]

Bill said:

Brexiters don't agree on precisely how we should leave so I don't see how you can claim that wanting a discussion is undemocratic. If anything more votes and discussion makes it more democratic.

If we actually leave I think this doesn't really matter. If we actually leave, future governments that we vote in will be able to change whatever arrangements as they see fit. If future governments find themselves in some kind of soft-bound position because of the EU as they are with us as members of the EU then I would think in that scenario we hadn't properly left.

[Hayek]

citizensm1th said:

In 1975 we had a referendum to join the eec which due to our various governments agreement became the eu as you well know

Crap butism

No we didn't, in 1975 we had a referendum to remain in the EEC. We joined the EEC without a referendum in (IIRC) 1973. I have a feeling it wasn't in Ted Heath's manifesto either.