Young woman shot by Police in terrror op.
Discussion
zarjaz1991 said:
It's a very tasty chip and I carry it well, with lashings of vinegar. Used to have salt too, but the health bods put a stop to that.
I'm sure I've mentioned the high level overview previously....there's a small bit of it in the thread about the A140 head on thing....but it isn't really worth going into specifics, it's very boring for everyone else and it won't help me. My trust in the police is broken permanently. I will have no interaction with them unless forced to by law. To the extend that, a few years ago, I was burgled and didn't bother telling them. They'd no doubt have wanted to inspect my vehicles to ensure compliance with the road traffic act, or something (I've actually had this before).
They don't like me. I don't like them. That's clearly how it's going to stay. I'm fine with that, as long as nobody expects me to pretend everything that's gone on, didn't, and I should just forget it and put it behind me. Because I'm not going to, and the reason for that is that I know it could, and probably will, happen again.
If youve been wronged by people that should know better, try to take on board youre not the only one, and as you travel through time you'll see it happen now and again. Things arent as perfect as theyre sometimes made out to be.I'm sure I've mentioned the high level overview previously....there's a small bit of it in the thread about the A140 head on thing....but it isn't really worth going into specifics, it's very boring for everyone else and it won't help me. My trust in the police is broken permanently. I will have no interaction with them unless forced to by law. To the extend that, a few years ago, I was burgled and didn't bother telling them. They'd no doubt have wanted to inspect my vehicles to ensure compliance with the road traffic act, or something (I've actually had this before).
They don't like me. I don't like them. That's clearly how it's going to stay. I'm fine with that, as long as nobody expects me to pretend everything that's gone on, didn't, and I should just forget it and put it behind me. Because I'm not going to, and the reason for that is that I know it could, and probably will, happen again.
It's only a small part of life though, dont let it take over the rest
zarjaz1991 said:
I'm sure the coppers on here are all thoroughly decent, I'm sure most coppers are, that's what I keep getting told (by coppers!). However, my own experience has been substantively different and the blame for my attitude to it lies fairly and squarely at the door of the coppers involved.
It seems that you have had problems with a number of police officers. Is there a common denominator that you could put your finger one?
RedTrident said:
After they'd already killed people. If the intelligence gathering was so good then perhaps they would have got to these morons before they killed people and stood waiting to have it our with the police.
The balances between state intrusion and freedom in a modern democracy mean there are gaps for people to operate within, regardless of how good the authorities are. RedTrident said:
I was referring to the shootings of these intelligence led operations pre attack. I genuinely don't recall one where the police shot a terrorist.
The nature of pre-planned operations means that risk can be controlled to a greater degree, meaning nearly all such operations result in not needing to discharge a firearm. zarjaz1991 said:
They don't like me. I don't like them. That's clearly how it's going to stay. I'm fine with that, as long as nobody expects me to pretend everything that's gone on, didn't, and I should just forget it and put it behind me. Because I'm not going to, and the reason for that is that I know it could, and probably will, happen again.
That's your prerogative and that's fine, but do you need to seek attention in every similar thread by mentioning it or similar? People get it. Why not try some content or substance that is actually related to what is being discussed?
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 30th April 16:20
bmw535i said:
It's always when involved with police. This has been covered many times on here.
You're incredibly dull
'It's always when involved with police.' But it is not. He reckons it's a number police. There must be another common link. You're incredibly dull
D'you think that reverting to personal attacks might not be a reasoned argument?
Just saying.
Derek Smith said:
'It's always when involved with police.' But it is not. He reckons it's a number police. There must be another common link.
D'you think that reverting to personal attacks might not be a reasoned argument?
Just saying.
Common denominator - police officers. D'you think that reverting to personal attacks might not be a reasoned argument?
Just saying.
When you last resorted to snide personal remarks about me, was that reasoned argument?
You didn't even have the decency to explain what you meant by it.
bmw535i said:
Common denominator - police officers.
When you last resorted to snide personal remarks about me, was that reasoned argument?
You didn't even have the decency to explain what you meant by it.
Hi, again.When you last resorted to snide personal remarks about me, was that reasoned argument?
You didn't even have the decency to explain what you meant by it.
So there's one bloke and lot of police officers, and you are suggesting that it is the fault of each individual officer.
Yep, OK, it's a theory. However, I favour the more obvious, and logical one.
Derek Smith said:
Hi, again.
So there's one bloke and lot of police officers, and you are suggesting that it is the fault of each individual officer.
Yep, OK, it's a theory. However, I favour the more obvious, and logical one.
Common denominator - they're all police officers. It's very simple.So there's one bloke and lot of police officers, and you are suggesting that it is the fault of each individual officer.
Yep, OK, it's a theory. However, I favour the more obvious, and logical one.
Don't try to be clever Derek, stick to the dull page long anecdotes.
Some of the serving and especially the retired police on here really don't seem to understand the way the force is perceived by many these days.
From my experience the firearms guys were very professional but the majority of the rank and file I've had dealings with were bloody useless.
And that's not an observation I make lightly because their utter ineptitude has been a god send to myself, members of my family and those I know.
From my experience the firearms guys were very professional but the majority of the rank and file I've had dealings with were bloody useless.
And that's not an observation I make lightly because their utter ineptitude has been a god send to myself, members of my family and those I know.
Like virtually any profession, you get your mix of excellent, good, bad, lazy and every so often criminal proportion of staff.
Every police officer isn't going to be amazing... is it realistic to think they will be?
Some people go through life with not one single bit of contact with the police. Maybe stopped in a road check perhaps, but never singled out for something.
I always find it astonishing then that some people manage to constantly come to the attention of the police. Not just one or two interactions over life, but yearly/monthly. How?These people tend to never understand why and then go on to declare how they are picked on.
But it is a special 'talent' to end up like this. How out of thousands and thousands of people, at that moment in proximity to police, you manage to stand out like a beacon and get either stopped, reported, arrested.
Other than the fact it's the police doing their job, there is usually a good reason for it. (No matter what spin is placed on it by the aggrieved)
Every police officer isn't going to be amazing... is it realistic to think they will be?
Some people go through life with not one single bit of contact with the police. Maybe stopped in a road check perhaps, but never singled out for something.
I always find it astonishing then that some people manage to constantly come to the attention of the police. Not just one or two interactions over life, but yearly/monthly. How?These people tend to never understand why and then go on to declare how they are picked on.
But it is a special 'talent' to end up like this. How out of thousands and thousands of people, at that moment in proximity to police, you manage to stand out like a beacon and get either stopped, reported, arrested.
Other than the fact it's the police doing their job, there is usually a good reason for it. (No matter what spin is placed on it by the aggrieved)
DS240 said:
I always find it astonishing then that some people manage to constantly come to the attention of the police. Not just one or two interactions over life, but yearly/monthly. How?These people tend to never understand why and then go on to declare how they are picked on.
But it is a special 'talent' to end up like this. How out of thousands and thousands of people, at that moment in proximity to police, you manage to stand out like a beacon and get either stopped, reported, arrested.
In previous threads its been as simple as something like having too nice a car for your ageBut it is a special 'talent' to end up like this. How out of thousands and thousands of people, at that moment in proximity to police, you manage to stand out like a beacon and get either stopped, reported, arrested.
All you have to do is match up with a stereotype
So long as you know, you can avoid it, eg sell the car or whatever it is
It's not difficult
Whether it's right is something that can cause arguments
A healthy society should treat explanations of police and government action with skepticism. History has shown that both are perfectly capable of a cover-up.
I am waiting to hear the facts about what happened in that house and the justification for attempting to kill a person who may or may not have been armed. Perhaps the body video cameras will dispel the fog. Regardless, I suspect the state will use all of its power to control what we are told and to protect those whose decisions may be questionable. If, despite all obstacles placed in the way of making officers accountable, some are found to be culpable, they will not personally be liable to pay redress. The tax payer will have to pick up the bill.
It will be interesting to see how well the procedures to ensure the officers had no opportunity to compare notes before writing their statements have worked.
As for the IPCC, I am not convinced of its independence. There used to be a section on its website that listed how many ex police officers worked for it. I cannot find that information there anymore. If anyone knows what has happened to it or how many ex police officers still work for the IPCC I am interested to know.
I am waiting to hear the facts about what happened in that house and the justification for attempting to kill a person who may or may not have been armed. Perhaps the body video cameras will dispel the fog. Regardless, I suspect the state will use all of its power to control what we are told and to protect those whose decisions may be questionable. If, despite all obstacles placed in the way of making officers accountable, some are found to be culpable, they will not personally be liable to pay redress. The tax payer will have to pick up the bill.
It will be interesting to see how well the procedures to ensure the officers had no opportunity to compare notes before writing their statements have worked.
As for the IPCC, I am not convinced of its independence. There used to be a section on its website that listed how many ex police officers worked for it. I cannot find that information there anymore. If anyone knows what has happened to it or how many ex police officers still work for the IPCC I am interested to know.
davidball said:
As for the IPCC, I am not convinced of its independence. There used to be a section on its website that listed how many ex police officers worked for it. I cannot find that information there anymore. If anyone knows what has happened to it or how many ex police officers still work for the IPCC I am interested to know.
you wont be surprised to know that the independence of the IPCC comes into question by either side of the fence.Which probably means theyre doing a good job at sitting on it
davidball said:
A healthy society should treat explanations of police and government action with skepticism. History has shown that both are perfectly capable of a cover-up.
I am waiting to hear the facts about what happened in that house and the justification for attempting to kill a person who may or may not have been armed. Perhaps the body video cameras will dispel the fog. Regardless, I suspect the state will use all of its power to control what we are told and to protect those whose decisions may be questionable. If, despite all obstacles placed in the way of making officers accountable, some are found to be culpable, they will not personally be liable to pay redress. The tax payer will have to pick up the bill.
It will be interesting to see how well the procedures to ensure the officers had no opportunity to compare notes before writing their statements have worked.
As for the IPCC, I am not convinced of its independence. There used to be a section on its website that listed how many ex police officers worked for it. I cannot find that information there anymore. If anyone knows what has happened to it or how many ex police officers still work for the IPCC I am interested to know.
Any evidence for the claim in bold? We don't know a single thing about how she was injured - could have been aiming at her, another person present or has it even been confirmed the police shot her and it wasn't another person present (who is now in custody).I am waiting to hear the facts about what happened in that house and the justification for attempting to kill a person who may or may not have been armed. Perhaps the body video cameras will dispel the fog. Regardless, I suspect the state will use all of its power to control what we are told and to protect those whose decisions may be questionable. If, despite all obstacles placed in the way of making officers accountable, some are found to be culpable, they will not personally be liable to pay redress. The tax payer will have to pick up the bill.
It will be interesting to see how well the procedures to ensure the officers had no opportunity to compare notes before writing their statements have worked.
As for the IPCC, I am not convinced of its independence. There used to be a section on its website that listed how many ex police officers worked for it. I cannot find that information there anymore. If anyone knows what has happened to it or how many ex police officers still work for the IPCC I am interested to know.
davidball said:
A healthy society should treat explanations of police and government action with skepticism. History has shown that both are perfectly capable of a cover-up.
I am waiting to hear the facts about what happened in that house and the justification for attempting to kill a person who may or may not have been armed. Perhaps the body video cameras will dispel the fog. Regardless, I suspect the state will use all of its power to control what we are told and to protect those whose decisions may be questionable. If, despite all obstacles placed in the way of making officers accountable, some are found to be culpable, they will not personally be liable to pay redress. The tax payer will have to pick up the bill.
It will be interesting to see how well the procedures to ensure the officers had no opportunity to compare notes before writing their statements have worked.
As for the IPCC, I am not convinced of its independence. There used to be a section on its website that listed how many ex police officers worked for it. I cannot find that information there anymore. If anyone knows what has happened to it or how many ex police officers still work for the IPCC I am interested to know.
Indeed, a healthy society requires that trust is limited. Checks are essential: for MPs, the press, the judiciary, army and, of course, the means of enforcement. I am waiting to hear the facts about what happened in that house and the justification for attempting to kill a person who may or may not have been armed. Perhaps the body video cameras will dispel the fog. Regardless, I suspect the state will use all of its power to control what we are told and to protect those whose decisions may be questionable. If, despite all obstacles placed in the way of making officers accountable, some are found to be culpable, they will not personally be liable to pay redress. The tax payer will have to pick up the bill.
It will be interesting to see how well the procedures to ensure the officers had no opportunity to compare notes before writing their statements have worked.
As for the IPCC, I am not convinced of its independence. There used to be a section on its website that listed how many ex police officers worked for it. I cannot find that information there anymore. If anyone knows what has happened to it or how many ex police officers still work for the IPCC I am interested to know.
In every part of society there also needs to be checks. I was naive when I joined the service and was shocked when I found that every institution, business and organisation would, in part, be either corrupt, inept or both. The lower the checks the greater the corruption. It's linear.
There is no other police service in the EU, and probably in Europe, that has more checks than the English/Welsh police. When English forces set up CCTV in cell blocks there were visits from foreign forces to see if it was possible. I would remind everyone that CCTV in cell blocks was being pushed by the federated ranks.
Is there another country in the EU or Europe that has police complaints systems similar to the IPCC let alone being more strict? It has its faults, but then so does every such creation, including the one that replaces it.
There are under-performing officers. Of course there are. There are also those who are corrupt. Much is made of court and discipline cases brought against police officers but there are two ways of viewing this: it shows that there are a lot of police officers who are corrupt or, of course, the effectiveness of the discipline/crime unit.
Which people think is the most likely can often be predicted by their previous posts.
I'm not sure what your point is regarding damages and costs, if that is what it is. It's no good suing an individual for high sums. Indeed, having the specific forces liable is a safeguard for those who have been injured. You must see that.
I don't think any police officer, current or in their dotage, has ever suggested that police officers do not misbehave, under-perform or commit criminal acts. On the other hand there are those on here, very few it has to be said, who challenge every police action from a basis of them being criminal.
I don't think any police officer, current etc., has suggested that any officer never makes mistakes. It would be silly to say so as there's no person in any job who never makes a mistake, be they surgeon, referee or pleb. All that one can do is demand that a person does their best.
Derek Smith said:
Indeed, a healthy society requires that trust is limited. Checks are essential: for MPs, the press, the judiciary, army and, of course, the means of enforcement.
In every part of society there also needs to be checks. I was naive when I joined the service and was shocked when I found that every institution, business and organisation would, in part, be either corrupt, inept or both. The lower the checks the greater the corruption. It's linear.
There is no other police service in the EU, and probably in Europe, that has more checks than the English/Welsh police. When English forces set up CCTV in cell blocks there were visits from foreign forces to see if it was possible. I would remind everyone that CCTV in cell blocks was being pushed by the federated ranks.
Is there another country in the EU or Europe that has police complaints systems similar to the IPCC let alone being more strict? It has its faults, but then so does every such creation, including the one that replaces it.
There are under-performing officers. Of course there are. There are also those who are corrupt. Much is made of court and discipline cases brought against police officers but there are two ways of viewing this: it shows that there are a lot of police officers who are corrupt or, of course, the effectiveness of the discipline/crime unit.
Which people think is the most likely can often be predicted by their previous posts.
I'm not sure what your point is regarding damages and costs, if that is what it is. It's no good suing an individual for high sums. Indeed, having the specific forces liable is a safeguard for those who have been injured. You must see that.
I don't think any police officer, current or in their dotage, has ever suggested that police officers do not misbehave, under-perform or commit criminal acts. On the other hand there are those on here, very few it has to be said, who challenge every police action from a basis of them being criminal.
I don't think any police officer, current etc., has suggested that any officer never makes mistakes. It would be silly to say so as there's no person in any job who never makes a mistake, be they surgeon, referee or pleb. All that one can do is demand that a person does their best.
I rarely agree with you Derek, but in this case I think I'm on your side. Certainly there are a number of people on here with zero information, very keen to make accusations.In every part of society there also needs to be checks. I was naive when I joined the service and was shocked when I found that every institution, business and organisation would, in part, be either corrupt, inept or both. The lower the checks the greater the corruption. It's linear.
There is no other police service in the EU, and probably in Europe, that has more checks than the English/Welsh police. When English forces set up CCTV in cell blocks there were visits from foreign forces to see if it was possible. I would remind everyone that CCTV in cell blocks was being pushed by the federated ranks.
Is there another country in the EU or Europe that has police complaints systems similar to the IPCC let alone being more strict? It has its faults, but then so does every such creation, including the one that replaces it.
There are under-performing officers. Of course there are. There are also those who are corrupt. Much is made of court and discipline cases brought against police officers but there are two ways of viewing this: it shows that there are a lot of police officers who are corrupt or, of course, the effectiveness of the discipline/crime unit.
Which people think is the most likely can often be predicted by their previous posts.
I'm not sure what your point is regarding damages and costs, if that is what it is. It's no good suing an individual for high sums. Indeed, having the specific forces liable is a safeguard for those who have been injured. You must see that.
I don't think any police officer, current or in their dotage, has ever suggested that police officers do not misbehave, under-perform or commit criminal acts. On the other hand there are those on here, very few it has to be said, who challenge every police action from a basis of them being criminal.
I don't think any police officer, current etc., has suggested that any officer never makes mistakes. It would be silly to say so as there's no person in any job who never makes a mistake, be they surgeon, referee or pleb. All that one can do is demand that a person does their best.
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