Young woman shot by Police in terrror op.
Discussion
I sort of get what the guy who wont co-operate with Old Bill is about. Some old boys in Yorkshire still feel very strongly as do some scousers .I get what he might think about some of the posters on here that will defend old bill no matter what. At times they come across as foolish. I actually suspect that one may embellishes his stuff just my opinion but I'm entitled to it
I also think that the police on the front line are in a no win situation. Its not all that long ago that 2 women police officers were murdered on what seemed to be a completely routine operation they were just a couple of women doing a job they liked that had no idea what was about to happen.
If this woman the police had shot had not been shot but had instead shot a policeman or worse then the police would be getting slagged off. Friend of a friend is a police woman over in Lancashire. We (wife and me) see her at least twice a year at my brothers parties. She tells some very scary stories of what they come up against.
I also think that the police on the front line are in a no win situation. Its not all that long ago that 2 women police officers were murdered on what seemed to be a completely routine operation they were just a couple of women doing a job they liked that had no idea what was about to happen.
If this woman the police had shot had not been shot but had instead shot a policeman or worse then the police would be getting slagged off. Friend of a friend is a police woman over in Lancashire. We (wife and me) see her at least twice a year at my brothers parties. She tells some very scary stories of what they come up against.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 30th April 19:50
Derek Smith said:
Thank you.
It's not a dig at you, but I've been fairly consistent throughout my few weeks on PH.
Odd. I've seen you accused of all sorts of things on here, some of them may even have been warranted, but I don't think I've ever seen you accused of inconsistency. Mind you I don't follow you in any kind of stalkerish way, I might just have missed it. It's not a dig at you, but I've been fairly consistent throughout my few weeks on PH.
Einion Yrth said:
Odd. I've seen you accused of all sorts of things on here, some of them may even have been warranted, but I don't think I've ever seen you accused of inconsistency. Mind you I don't follow you in any kind of stalkerish way, I might just have missed it.
Thanks for that, at least I think so.I've been accused of making excuses for the police, although I assume only by those who haven't read my book.
In the 60s and 70s corruption was endemic in many metropolitan police forces. Mind you, there were a number of rural constabularies that were similar. It is rather ironic that I moved from a London force to escape corrupt officers and headed to one that included Brighton Borough. Lots of commissioners and chief constables came in to various forces with the express intent to cut out the bad apples. What changed matters was more robust discipline processes and procedures.
The problem is not solved of course, it never will be no more than it is possible to eliminate corruption in business, but what has happened is that the consequences of corrupt practices in the police and the raising of the risk level stops it being the easy option.
sidicks said:
I'm making no comment about you being consistent (or otherwise), simply that on this topic, with what is currently known, I support your comments.
I meant the post for other readers and not you. Sorry I didn't make it clear.
I don't bother to reply to (most) trolls, Derek. They're not interested / capable of debating or being constructive. I feel a little sorry for them. It's also for their own good, last time I replied to one, he got upset, went on a mega rant and got warned by a moderator. The NHS has enough issues as it is 
The investigatory skills of an experienced Detective are a different level to the people the IPCC start 'from fresh' and have even had for a few years. I've seen investigations done by the police internal disciplinary and the IPCC and the former were in a different league. I'll add that they do have some very competent investigators used for the more important matters.
If I had a complaint against the police, I'd rather have a police officer / ex-police officer who is motivated to investigate police officers (why else do they do it?) than someone just trained by the IPCC.
davidball said:
As for the IPCC, I am not convinced of its independence. There used to be a section on its website that listed how many ex police officers worked for it. I cannot find that information there anymore. If anyone knows what has happened to it or how many ex police officers still work for the IPCC I am interested to know.
The IPCC suffers from a lack of ex-police officers. The investigatory skills of an experienced Detective are a different level to the people the IPCC start 'from fresh' and have even had for a few years. I've seen investigations done by the police internal disciplinary and the IPCC and the former were in a different league. I'll add that they do have some very competent investigators used for the more important matters.
If I had a complaint against the police, I'd rather have a police officer / ex-police officer who is motivated to investigate police officers (why else do they do it?) than someone just trained by the IPCC.
It's the tarring all with same brush thats the problem. As I think Derek says you'll always get some people making mistakes or just plain wrong.
The problem is when a Member of the Public is on the wrong end of it they can easily think the whole organisation is like that. If it happens a second or third time, to the organisation it may still seem statistically small, but to the person involved it's huge.
What do do about it, nigh on impossible, it's just the way it is. Does it just need an acceptance it can happen?
The problem is when a Member of the Public is on the wrong end of it they can easily think the whole organisation is like that. If it happens a second or third time, to the organisation it may still seem statistically small, but to the person involved it's huge.
What do do about it, nigh on impossible, it's just the way it is. Does it just need an acceptance it can happen?
saaby93 said:
It's the tarring all with same brush thats the problem. As I think Derek says you'll always get some people making mistakes or just plain wrong.
The problem is when a Member of the Public is on the wrong end of it they can easily think the whole organisation is like that. If it happens a second or third time, to the organisation it may still seem statistically small, but to the person involved it's huge.
What do do about it, nigh on impossible, it's just the way it is. Does it just need an acceptance it can happen?
For my part, I certainly don't tar all police officers with any brush, what I do do though is that if I need to deal with the police I am extremely wary and unfortunately I don't really trust them. I can't help that.The problem is when a Member of the Public is on the wrong end of it they can easily think the whole organisation is like that. If it happens a second or third time, to the organisation it may still seem statistically small, but to the person involved it's huge.
What do do about it, nigh on impossible, it's just the way it is. Does it just need an acceptance it can happen?
In terms of the subject of this thread...I do have some confidence that the police have acted correctly, I'm aware that none of us can be sure either way though. At this stage, with an operation like this, I'd say they have a very good record on such operations and be inclined to think it's all above board.
Derek Smith said:
'It's always when involved with police.' But it is not. He reckons it's a number police. There must be another common link.
D'you think that reverting to personal attacks might not be a reasoned argument?
Just saying.
It was a number of officers in the same division of the same force. I have reason to believe that division was, at the time, infected with several corrupt officers. D'you think that reverting to personal attacks might not be a reasoned argument?
Just saying.
One life lesson it did teach me....never, ever, put in a formal complaint against the police. It is simply not worth it, the power they have to screw your life up is just too great.
La Liga said:
I don't bother to reply to (most) trolls, Derek. They're not interested / capable of debating or being constructive. I feel a little sorry for them. It's also for their own good, last time I replied to one, he got upset, went on a mega rant and got warned by a moderator. The NHS has enough issues as it is
The investigatory skills of an experienced Detective are a different level to the people the IPCC start 'from fresh' and have even had for a few years. I've seen investigations done by the police internal disciplinary and the IPCC and the former were in a different league. I'll add that they do have some very competent investigators used for the more important matters.
If I had a complaint against the police, I'd rather have a police officer / ex-police officer who is motivated to investigate police officers (why else do they do it?) than someone just trained by the IPCC.
You are right about investigative skills of course. It's a bit like police used as instructors I suppose. davidball said:
As for the IPCC, I am not convinced of its independence. There used to be a section on its website that listed how many ex police officers worked for it. I cannot find that information there anymore. If anyone knows what has happened to it or how many ex police officers still work for the IPCC I am interested to know.
The IPCC suffers from a lack of ex-police officers. The investigatory skills of an experienced Detective are a different level to the people the IPCC start 'from fresh' and have even had for a few years. I've seen investigations done by the police internal disciplinary and the IPCC and the former were in a different league. I'll add that they do have some very competent investigators used for the more important matters.
If I had a complaint against the police, I'd rather have a police officer / ex-police officer who is motivated to investigate police officers (why else do they do it?) than someone just trained by the IPCC.
As I've mentioned before on here, the IPCC completed a file and took a friend of mine to crown court, with the threat of life imprisonment. The file was ineptly produced and it took years, literally, to get it into a condition where the case was thrown out at court. I saw the disclosure. It was something a probationer might have produced, although the grammar was a level or two above.
The only police input was from ACPO level. It's fair to say that no number of DCs would have produced a prima facie case as there was no evidence. There was a suggestion of political pressure on the CPS.
Poor investigative abilities is a common comment from others who've seen IPCC files. I've just seen the one. That was enough.
Re the trolls; I take your point. I suppose I see it as a bit like hearsay. If you don't challenge a statement that is, let's say, inflammatory then it becomes accepted.
I'm not sure how I stumbled across this old topic, but for sake of forum topic closure, the woman shot in the Police raid, 22 year old Rizlaine Boular, pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey to the preparation of terrorist acts, planning a murderous knife attack on innocent members of the public in central London, and was sentenced to a minimum of 16 years in prison.
No further statement on the actual shooting.
No further statement on the actual shooting.
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