Discussion
colonel c said:
So all that could be easily achieved with legal trail hunting or other imaginative events. There is simply no need for the cruelty.
I dont know is the answer.In my part of the world, there have been numerous ‘point to point’ events, many have which have now folded due to the expenses of organising one vs the income from riders and participants. Also an issue is the difficulty in getting permission from landowners.
Plus, big point to point events are only a few times per year, and generally they are only a few miles in length.
Trail hunting doesn’t get the permission from landowners that hunting does.
Farmers are generally against allowing a bunch of horse riders to simply galavant across their land for fun, and without paying, which is fair enough.
But if the farmers feel that the hunt is providing a service to the community (by killing foxes) then they generally allow permission for it to happen.
Some farmers of course don’t allow permission, and that is their right to do so.
There is almost nothing else available for horse riders that allows them to properly gallop their horses for miles across the countryside like they love doing.
I think this is what people don’t understand about hunting. They think just cancel it altogether, there is no need for it, no one will really care if it is totally banned, people won’t really be inconvenienced in any way and so on.
The truth is that many people are actually employed full time by hunts, and hundreds of horse riders and equestrian enthusiasts use the hunt to enjoy their hobby of horse riding.
Like I said, in many hunts, catching foxes is just not on the list of reasons to go out hunting.
Some hunts it is absolutely the reason to go out.
That’s me explaining things as best I can.
Lord Marylebone said:
....
But if the farmers feel that the hunt is providing a service to the community (by killing foxes) then they generally allow persi
But as my hunting farrier friend admitted, most hunts allow foxes to breed and do not disturb whilst littering. Some dens are then raided for the cubs in order to blood the young hounds early in the season, other dens are purposely left alone to allow the cubs to mature. But if the farmers feel that the hunt is providing a service to the community (by killing foxes) then they generally allow persi
Regardless of a social event, pest control, or employment issues (farrier friend says he'd lose much of his trade if not for the hunt) it remains a dubious pastime to defend on any ethical grounds. And let's be honest - there is no real 'service to the community' involved. Most country communities will rightly be far more concerned with a loss of bus services and local medical and education requirements than a loss of fox-hunting.
Jasandjules said:
Rovinghawk said:
My mother & sister were both members of a hunt. Both animal lovers.
No, they were not. Anyone who thinks chasing foxes with a pack of dogs then having them torn apart or being involved in any such activity, is not an animal lover. They might like say their dog or their cat, but that is different.MikeT66 said:
But as my hunting farrier friend admitted, most hunts allow foxes to breed and do not disturb whilst littering. Some dens are then raided for the cubs in order to blood the young hounds early in the season, other dens are purposely left alone to allow the cubs to mature.
Regardless of a social event, pest control, or employment issues (farrier friend says he'd lose much of his trade if not for the hunt) it remains a dubious pastime to defend on any ethical grounds. And let's be honest - there is no real 'service to the community' involved. Most country communities will rightly be far more concerned with a loss of bus services and local medical and education requirements than a loss of fox-hunting.
I don’t disagree with any of that.Regardless of a social event, pest control, or employment issues (farrier friend says he'd lose much of his trade if not for the hunt) it remains a dubious pastime to defend on any ethical grounds. And let's be honest - there is no real 'service to the community' involved. Most country communities will rightly be far more concerned with a loss of bus services and local medical and education requirements than a loss of fox-hunting.
As I have mentioned a few times in this thread, I’m not here to defend hunting, and I do not partake in it myself, I’m just trying to provide information to the thread as I am quite familiar with fox-hunting and the people involved.
Some on this thread have labelled me as a vile coward for not opposing hunting, which is fine, that’s their prerogative to call me whatever they want.
I don’t personally feel like a vile coward just because I don’t have strong views either way on fox hunting.
If it was all stopped tomorrow I personally wouldn’t be that bothered.
Lord Marylebone said:
MikeT66 said:
But as my hunting farrier friend admitted, most hunts allow foxes to breed and do not disturb whilst littering. Some dens are then raided for the cubs in order to blood the young hounds early in the season, other dens are purposely left alone to allow the cubs to mature.
Regardless of a social event, pest control, or employment issues (farrier friend says he'd lose much of his trade if not for the hunt) it remains a dubious pastime to defend on any ethical grounds. And let's be honest - there is no real 'service to the community' involved. Most country communities will rightly be far more concerned with a loss of bus services and local medical and education requirements than a loss of fox-hunting.
I don’t disagree with any of that.Regardless of a social event, pest control, or employment issues (farrier friend says he'd lose much of his trade if not for the hunt) it remains a dubious pastime to defend on any ethical grounds. And let's be honest - there is no real 'service to the community' involved. Most country communities will rightly be far more concerned with a loss of bus services and local medical and education requirements than a loss of fox-hunting.
As I have mentioned a few times in this thread, I’m not here to defend hunting, and I do not partake in it myself, I’m just trying to provide information to the thread as I am quite familiar with fox-hunting and the people involved.
Some on this thread have labelled me as a vile coward for not opposing hunting, which is fine, that’s their prerogative to call me whatever they want.
I don’t personally feel like a vile coward just because I don’t have strong views either way on fox hunting.
If it was all stopped tomorrow I personally wouldn’t be that bothered.
MikeT66 said:
Rovinghawk said:
Jasandjules said:
That means the people involved are psychopaths who enjoy harming animals for fun.
But you prove the point well, the fox hunters are nothing but scum who enjoy harming animals.
My mother & sister were both members of a hunt. Both animal lovers. I don't think in all the hunts they ever attended they even saw a fox- to them it was simply a social occasion with foxes as an excuse.But you prove the point well, the fox hunters are nothing but scum who enjoy harming animals.
Having said that, both consider foxes to be vermin on a par with rats.
Reminds me of a similar discussion with a lovely chap/friend who is a farrier for one of the NW hunts.
Him: I don't know why people object to fox-hunting - they are pests that need to be controlled.
Me: But you once told me that you allow them to breed on selective parts of the land.
Him: Well, yes, sort of. But you need to understand that we have a lot of respect for the foxes. Sometimes when one is really smart and eludes us we give it a cheer. Most of the time we don't actually catch anything anyway.
Me: Oh, so as form of control it's not very good then?
Him: Not really, but it's the only way of separating the ill and old ones from the healthy.
Me: So you want the healthy ones to survive and escape? You make it sound like a deer cull.
Him: No, it's just a way of keeping the numbers down. It's an old tradition, you city people (although I grew up in the Yorkshire countryside) don't understand that. Anyway, it's more about class war than anything.
Me: Hmmm... slavery was tradition, too. So was cock-fighting, bull-baiting and dog fighting. They were the poor man's blood sports that got banned along time ago. Strange that it took a lot longer to get fox-hunting banned.
Him: You're missing the point entirely. It's a social thing, where people get together for the ride and enjoy the horses.
Me: So it's gone from a poor form of pest control, to an out-dated and cruel tradition to a social aspect. Why not just go for a ride?
Him: Er........
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
You hold pretty much my thoughts. If, and it's not a credible if IMO, the hunt was about pest control then you'd think there would be zero issue taking the caught fox out with a gun. There can't be many worse ways to have your life ended by a pack of dogs tearing you apart limb by limb. For that reason I agree that anyone who takes part in a hunt is most definitely NOT an animal lover.
You are not in any position to impose your emotional values on another person. Love for anything is rarely binary and often, as I'm sure you've found out through life, has blurred edges.popeyewhite said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
You hold pretty much my thoughts. If, and it's not a credible if IMO, the hunt was about pest control then you'd think there would be zero issue taking the caught fox out with a gun. There can't be many worse ways to have your life ended by a pack of dogs tearing you apart limb by limb. For that reason I agree that anyone who takes part in a hunt is most definitely NOT an animal lover.
You are not in any position to impose your emotional values on another person. Love for anything is rarely binary and often, as I'm sure you've found out through life, has blurred edges.Rovinghawk said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
Do you think being someone who can watch an animal suffering a terrible ending sits well with the claim of being someone who cares for animals?
So much better that they get old & frail, slowly freezing to death come winter? 
I see them as vermin, on a par with rats or cockroaches. Roald Dahl's classy image of them never really resonated with me.
I'm not pro-hunt so much as anti-fox & anti-banning. If a bunch of people want to get together & ride horses over fields then let them get on with it. If a fox dies in the process then so what?
If you don't like it then that's your view but I don't agree with stopping others because of your opinion.
I'm not pro-hunt so much as anti-fox & anti-banning. If a bunch of people want to get together & ride horses over fields then let them get on with it. If a fox dies in the process then so what?
If you don't like it then that's your view but I don't agree with stopping others because of your opinion.
MikeT66 said:
Then why not just got for a ride out? Why involve hunting, particularly when it is not effective at catching the "vermin" (that most hunts are happy to allow to breed so they have something to chase)?
Reminds me of a similar discussion with a lovely chap/friend who is a farrier for one of the NW hunts.
Him: I don't know why people object to fox-hunting - they are pests that need to be controlled.
Me: But you once told me that you allow them to breed on selective parts of the land.
Him: Well, yes, sort of. But you need to understand that we have a lot of respect for the foxes. Sometimes when one is really smart and eludes us we give it a cheer. Most of the time we don't actually catch anything anyway.
Me: Oh, so as form of control it's not very good then?
Him: Not really, but it's the only way of separating the ill and old ones from the healthy.
Me: So you want the healthy ones to survive and escape? You make it sound like a deer cull.
Him: No, it's just a way of keeping the numbers down. It's an old tradition, you city people (although I grew up in the Yorkshire countryside) don't understand that. Anyway, it's more about class war than anything.
Me: Hmmm... slavery was tradition, too. So was cock-fighting, bull-baiting and dog fighting. They were the poor man's blood sports that got banned along time ago. Strange that it took a lot longer to get fox-hunting banned.
Him: You're missing the point entirely. It's a social thing, where people get together for the ride and enjoy the horses.
Me: So it's gone from a poor form of pest control, to an out-dated and cruel tradition to a social aspect. Why not just go for a ride?
Him: Er........
I’m not a fan of hunting I don’t see why anybody would want to kill a fox because they are cute but hey ho. Reminds me of a similar discussion with a lovely chap/friend who is a farrier for one of the NW hunts.
Him: I don't know why people object to fox-hunting - they are pests that need to be controlled.
Me: But you once told me that you allow them to breed on selective parts of the land.
Him: Well, yes, sort of. But you need to understand that we have a lot of respect for the foxes. Sometimes when one is really smart and eludes us we give it a cheer. Most of the time we don't actually catch anything anyway.
Me: Oh, so as form of control it's not very good then?
Him: Not really, but it's the only way of separating the ill and old ones from the healthy.
Me: So you want the healthy ones to survive and escape? You make it sound like a deer cull.
Him: No, it's just a way of keeping the numbers down. It's an old tradition, you city people (although I grew up in the Yorkshire countryside) don't understand that. Anyway, it's more about class war than anything.
Me: Hmmm... slavery was tradition, too. So was cock-fighting, bull-baiting and dog fighting. They were the poor man's blood sports that got banned along time ago. Strange that it took a lot longer to get fox-hunting banned.
Him: You're missing the point entirely. It's a social thing, where people get together for the ride and enjoy the horses.
Me: So it's gone from a poor form of pest control, to an out-dated and cruel tradition to a social aspect. Why not just go for a ride?
Him: Er........
Anyway over the last five years I’ve taken up target shooting and clay shooting. As such I tend to mix with a lot of rural land workers and owners.
I’ve been asked now many an occasion if I’d like to shoot rabbits on owners land.
Reason. Being now foxes are shot instead of hunted their numbers are down.
That means rabbits are up and literally causing havoc.
Might just be rubbish but I’ve heard the same sentiment form three different counties repeatedly.
I have now idea if there is truth in it sounds plausible I suppose
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
As I said, if it's a pest control, or as you suggest welfare, then take it out with a gun. They'd not even hear the gunshot before they died.
What if you only wounded it, and it dragged itself pitifully away, to die in writhing agony in a ditch a couple of weeks later?popeyewhite said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
You hold pretty much my thoughts. If, and it's not a credible if IMO, the hunt was about pest control then you'd think there would be zero issue taking the caught fox out with a gun. There can't be many worse ways to have your life ended by a pack of dogs tearing you apart limb by limb. For that reason I agree that anyone who takes part in a hunt is most definitely NOT an animal lover.
You are not in any position to impose your emotional values on another person. Love for anything is rarely binary and often, as I'm sure you've found out through life, has blurred edges.Same as other humans.
I like most humans. I love some humans that much I would die trying to protect them.
There are however, other humans that I wouldn’t care if they received a painful death of sorts.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 17th January 12:58
The dogs do not discriminate.
Any animal that is in the pack's line, and deemed to have "upset" one of the pack will be torn apart. Even if a fox is in it's vicinity.
I was advised by friends who hunt / work the land; if you know the hunt is near put your dogs away else problems may arise.
I have no problems with fox hunting, except perhaps the members arrogance, however all hunts [around here] are held based on the legal requirement [to my knowledge]. I suppose the real risk is if they are following a scent and happen across fox then what do you think they will go for?
Are all hunts legal? I wouldn't like to guess but like all things not all legalities are met in life.
It is a natural instinct for dogs to hunt.
Any animal that is in the pack's line, and deemed to have "upset" one of the pack will be torn apart. Even if a fox is in it's vicinity.
I was advised by friends who hunt / work the land; if you know the hunt is near put your dogs away else problems may arise.
I have no problems with fox hunting, except perhaps the members arrogance, however all hunts [around here] are held based on the legal requirement [to my knowledge]. I suppose the real risk is if they are following a scent and happen across fox then what do you think they will go for?
Are all hunts legal? I wouldn't like to guess but like all things not all legalities are met in life.
It is a natural instinct for dogs to hunt.
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
Do you think being someone who can watch an animal suffering a terrible ending sits well with the claim of being someone who cares for animals?
I watched my dog suffer a terrible ending. I should have had him put down down weeks earlier, and he had an awful time before his death. Because of me, because I loved him.Like I said, whether I, or you, think someone else's understanding of an emotion is correct or incorrect is according to our beliefs, not theirs. Please bear that in mind.
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