The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
AlexC1981 said:
Gender fluidity is incomprehensible to me and for that reason I do not understand why so many people here insist that gender should be defined by chromosomes or genitalia only. How could you possibly have the faintest idea of what gender fluidity is like and so be able to state your case so firmly?
I really think this is one of those things you have to experience from the other side before you can start insisting on anything.
What you are saying is that 'normal' people should not be allowed an opinion on it?I really think this is one of those things you have to experience from the other side before you can start insisting on anything.
That's fine with me, but if that is the case we shouldnt be expected to make any allowances for it either.
Halb said:
Shuvi McTupya said:
Is there a word to describe someone who is only attracted to non binary, erm, comrades?
Timewasters? windmillchargers?Although, I don't know, choosing non-binary is not the same as not being interested in sex, I guess, I don't know.
Prism Toolkit (pdf)
Prism Toolkit said:
A Note On Acronyms
Many acronyms are used, but the most recognizable and common is LGBTQ. While this acronym is useful and has important historical roots, it has been criticized for not being inclusive of all marginalized identities. A more inclusive version of that acronym is LGBTTTPQQAI+ (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Transsexual, Two-Spirit, Pansexual, Queer, Questioning, Asexual, Aromantic, Ally, Intersex, etc....); however, this acronym can make conversations about this topic cumbersome.
The Alberta Teachers’ Association uses Sexual and Gender Minority (SGM) to be inclusive of all identities and ways of being. You will find this acronym throughout ATA materials. Materials adapted from outside sources may still use the LGBTQ acronyms or variations thereof.
Outside of this resource, you may encounter other acronyms such as MOGAI (Marginalized Orientations, Gender Identities and Intersex) or QUILTBAG (Queer/Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans (Transgender/Transsexual), Bisexual, Asexual, and/or Gay)
Confused? You soon will be...Many acronyms are used, but the most recognizable and common is LGBTQ. While this acronym is useful and has important historical roots, it has been criticized for not being inclusive of all marginalized identities. A more inclusive version of that acronym is LGBTTTPQQAI+ (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Transsexual, Two-Spirit, Pansexual, Queer, Questioning, Asexual, Aromantic, Ally, Intersex, etc....); however, this acronym can make conversations about this topic cumbersome.
The Alberta Teachers’ Association uses Sexual and Gender Minority (SGM) to be inclusive of all identities and ways of being. You will find this acronym throughout ATA materials. Materials adapted from outside sources may still use the LGBTQ acronyms or variations thereof.
Outside of this resource, you may encounter other acronyms such as MOGAI (Marginalized Orientations, Gender Identities and Intersex) or QUILTBAG (Queer/Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans (Transgender/Transsexual), Bisexual, Asexual, and/or Gay)
But you just have to love 'QUILTBAG'
As you can see from this list, the authors of this work have demonstrated that the categories are infinitely divisible, and that readers may be infinitely sensitive and infinitely offended if their particular made up classification is not included.
To anyone using logical analysis and not already wholly consumed by their ideology, this would present an immediate red flag all on it's own.
I don't care if someone is male, female, transgender, queer, non-binary. If they want me to call them Zie, She, He, or They that's fine. If they are happy wearing clothes designed for one gender or the other or both, that's fine. If they change their name, I'll call them their new name. The things which make them happy and comfortable aren't harming anyone else, so it is no concern of mine.
If they are insulted by someone who refuses to accept their new name, new gender, or choice of clothing then that is my concern and I do care.
IDAHOT (International Day Against Homophobia Biphobia and Transphobia) exists purely for this reason. Too many people do care about the clothes, pronouns, or actions of others for the wrong reasons.
The idea that a transgender person in the toilet or changing room will cause you discomfort is almost laughable when 30 seconds reading replies here shows that it's the transgender person who is likely to be most uncomfortable. If you are transgender, whether you 'pass' or not (to pass means to not be seen as trans), you're going to be in a situation at some point when you need a toilet in public. Whichever they choose to use will be an issue.
Furthermore, the idea that they would be undressing visibly is highly unlikely - No one wants to draw any more attention than necessary to themselves in a toilet or changing room, least of all those who might have something they wish others not to see. Your child, wife, or anyone else you are worried about will not be exposed to something difficult to understand.
Honestly, you guys. What a bunch of snowflakes.
If they are insulted by someone who refuses to accept their new name, new gender, or choice of clothing then that is my concern and I do care.
IDAHOT (International Day Against Homophobia Biphobia and Transphobia) exists purely for this reason. Too many people do care about the clothes, pronouns, or actions of others for the wrong reasons.
The idea that a transgender person in the toilet or changing room will cause you discomfort is almost laughable when 30 seconds reading replies here shows that it's the transgender person who is likely to be most uncomfortable. If you are transgender, whether you 'pass' or not (to pass means to not be seen as trans), you're going to be in a situation at some point when you need a toilet in public. Whichever they choose to use will be an issue.
Furthermore, the idea that they would be undressing visibly is highly unlikely - No one wants to draw any more attention than necessary to themselves in a toilet or changing room, least of all those who might have something they wish others not to see. Your child, wife, or anyone else you are worried about will not be exposed to something difficult to understand.
Honestly, you guys. What a bunch of snowflakes.
romeogolf said:
I don't care if someone is male, female, transgender, queer, non-binary. If they want me to call them Zie, She, He, or They that's fine. If they are happy wearing clothes designed for one gender or the other or both, that's fine. If they change their name, I'll call them their new name. The things which make them happy and comfortable aren't harming anyone else, so it is no concern of mine.
If they are insulted by someone who refuses to accept their new name, new gender, or choice of clothing then that is my concern and I do care.
IDAHOT (International Day Against Homophobia Biphobia and Transphobia) exists purely for this reason. Too many people do care about the clothes, pronouns, or actions of others for the wrong reasons.
The idea that a transgender person in the toilet or changing room will cause you discomfort is almost laughable when 30 seconds reading replies here shows that it's the transgender person who is likely to be most uncomfortable. If you are transgender, whether you 'pass' or not (to pass means to not be seen as trans), you're going to be in a situation at some point when you need a toilet in public. Whichever they choose to use will be an issue.
Furthermore, the idea that they would be undressing visibly is highly unlikely - No one wants to draw any more attention than necessary to themselves in a toilet or changing room, least of all those who might have something they wish others not to see. Your child, wife, or anyone else you are worried about will not be exposed to something difficult to understand.
Honestly, you guys. What a bunch of snowflakes.
I fear that while I would agree that most of what you say is simply informed common sense, that it will be the women's rights activists that put up the biggest fight over toilet and changing room access, as you can see a brief example of in my previously posted link here; LCJC meeting no. 70, Bill C-16, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code - YouTube - this link starts at 1:56:16.If they are insulted by someone who refuses to accept their new name, new gender, or choice of clothing then that is my concern and I do care.
IDAHOT (International Day Against Homophobia Biphobia and Transphobia) exists purely for this reason. Too many people do care about the clothes, pronouns, or actions of others for the wrong reasons.
The idea that a transgender person in the toilet or changing room will cause you discomfort is almost laughable when 30 seconds reading replies here shows that it's the transgender person who is likely to be most uncomfortable. If you are transgender, whether you 'pass' or not (to pass means to not be seen as trans), you're going to be in a situation at some point when you need a toilet in public. Whichever they choose to use will be an issue.
Furthermore, the idea that they would be undressing visibly is highly unlikely - No one wants to draw any more attention than necessary to themselves in a toilet or changing room, least of all those who might have something they wish others not to see. Your child, wife, or anyone else you are worried about will not be exposed to something difficult to understand.
Honestly, you guys. What a bunch of snowflakes.
A considerable amount of testimony from women's rights advocates on the subject is available from the same committee in other sessions if anyone is interested.
It is highly informative.
Owl seems far more level headed than Piers was.
Read their follow up to the GMB interview here
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/piers-morgan-m...
but possibly the most important part of the article is this section
Read their follow up to the GMB interview here
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/piers-morgan-m...
but possibly the most important part of the article is this section
Owl said:
people express the fear that the aim of gender neutrality is to erase gender and that men and women will not be allowed to be men and women anymore because we all have to be androgynous blobs. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The imminent threat of the ‘gender neutrality movement’ as a force coming to erase your inner sense of self and identity is no more than fear-mongering which is founded in ignorance and misconceptions. The expansion of gender and gender expression beyond the binary does not equate to mandatory gender neutrality and the erasure of men and women.
What non-binary people wish more than anything is to be respected for who they are and for society to accept that there are many different ways of experiencing or expressing your gender. That means that anyone should be able to live their life according to their own inner sense of self––as a woman, man or non-binary––and they should be allowed to express themselves as they wish and not be forced to adhere to strict gendered ideas of clothing and expression.
The imminent threat of the ‘gender neutrality movement’ as a force coming to erase your inner sense of self and identity is no more than fear-mongering which is founded in ignorance and misconceptions. The expansion of gender and gender expression beyond the binary does not equate to mandatory gender neutrality and the erasure of men and women.
What non-binary people wish more than anything is to be respected for who they are and for society to accept that there are many different ways of experiencing or expressing your gender. That means that anyone should be able to live their life according to their own inner sense of self––as a woman, man or non-binary––and they should be allowed to express themselves as they wish and not be forced to adhere to strict gendered ideas of clothing and expression.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 19th May 21:04
Shuvi McTupya said:
AlexC1981 said:
Gender fluidity is incomprehensible to me and for that reason I do not understand why so many people here insist that gender should be defined by chromosomes or genitalia only. How could you possibly have the faintest idea of what gender fluidity is like and so be able to state your case so firmly?
I really think this is one of those things you have to experience from the other side before you can start insisting on anything.
What you are saying is that 'normal' people should not be allowed an opinion on it?I really think this is one of those things you have to experience from the other side before you can start insisting on anything.
That's fine with me, but if that is the case we shouldnt be expected to make any allowances for it either.
Can you describe how this feels? What are you thinking about? What emotions you are feeling? What are you going to do now?
romeogolf said:
The idea that a transgender person in the toilet or changing room will cause you discomfort is almost laughable when 30 seconds reading replies here shows that it's the transgender person who is likely to be most uncomfortable. If you are transgender, whether you 'pass' or not (to pass means to not be seen as trans), you're going to be in a situation at some point when you need a toilet in public. Whichever they choose to use will be an issue.
Exactly so. If a person is presenting as female then the last thing they want is to be forced to use the male toilets - at best they'll be subject to ridicule and at worse the same kind of harassment a cis-female would. Frankly the whole idea of gender segregation in public toilets is laughable. Have a room full of traps, maybe a side room for urinals, and a sink & hand dryer area. Last time I visited Yo Sushi in Westminster (which was a few years ago now) that's exactly what they had.
GroundEffect said:
I think it's called Pansexual but that's too many names for me - the 'B' to me just covers will shag anyone that looks & smells good
Yes, it's pansexual (from the greek for "all"). Some people who identify as bisexual are actually pansexual but 'bisexual' is more commonly understood. Using the word pansexual explicitly says you recognise more than two genders though and is a more inclusive term. A bisexual person might only be attracted to cis-male and cis-female people. Edited by ClockworkCupcake on Friday 19th May 21:10
ClockworkCupcake said:
romeogolf said:
The idea that a transgender person in the toilet or changing room will cause you discomfort is almost laughable when 30 seconds reading replies here shows that it's the transgender person who is likely to be most uncomfortable. If you are transgender, whether you 'pass' or not (to pass means to not be seen as trans), you're going to be in a situation at some point when you need a toilet in public. Whichever they choose to use will be an issue.
Exactly so. If a person is presenting as female then the last thing they want is to be forced to use the male toilets - at best they'll be subject to ridicule and at worse the same kind of harassment a cis-female would. Frankly the whole idea of gender segregation in public toilets is laughable. Have a room full of traps, maybe a side room for urinals, and a sink & hairdryer area. Last time I visited Yo Sushi in Westminster (which was a few years ago now) that's exactly what they had.
AlexC1981 said:
You can have an opinion on gender fluidity but to form an opinion on a subject it is best to look at it from all points of view. Just for a moment, pretend that as of this moment something has flicked in your head and you feel like the opposite gender to what you are.
Can you describe how this feels? What are you thinking about? What emotions you are feeling? What are you going to do now?
No, I can't imagine how it would feel to be a woman, nor do I know how it would feel to be a different race. Can you describe how this feels? What are you thinking about? What emotions you are feeling? What are you going to do now?
Are you suggesting LBGTQ people put themselves in the shoes of a heterosexual before forming an opinion?
Bill Nye has taken on this topic as well as spouting crap about climate change even though he is equally unqualified on both topics.
As someone said - he self-identifies as a scientist - it doesn't make him one!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycVkZiHZUYE
As someone said - he self-identifies as a scientist - it doesn't make him one!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycVkZiHZUYE
Shuvi McTupya said:
No, I can't imagine how it would feel to be a woman, nor do I know how it would feel to be a different race.
Are you suggesting LBGTQ people put themselves in the shoes of a heterosexual before forming an opinion?
I expect they spend plenty of time considering how hard it would be to live in society without having to face things like thisAre you suggesting LBGTQ people put themselves in the shoes of a heterosexual before forming an opinion?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/transgen...
and If death threats were not enough
Article said:
Neither Haywood nor Labelle reported the threats to police.
"We did discuss notifying the police. It's a bit of a touchy issue because the main audience for Sophie's comics are trans people, trans women specifically and, you know, the police ... don't always handle themselves well with transgender folks and many people in the transgender community have had negative interactions with the police," Haywood said.
Having a police presence outside of the store for the launch would not have been a good solution, he added.
"We did discuss notifying the police. It's a bit of a touchy issue because the main audience for Sophie's comics are trans people, trans women specifically and, you know, the police ... don't always handle themselves well with transgender folks and many people in the transgender community have had negative interactions with the police," Haywood said.
Having a police presence outside of the store for the launch would not have been a good solution, he added.
8.4L 154 said:
I expect they spend plenty of time considering how hard it would be to live in society without having to face things like this
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/transgen...
It's amazing how worked up some people get over something that doesn't actually affect their lives, just their sensibilities. I mean, I can't stand football but I don't go around telling other people who like it that they shouldn't and threatening them with violence if they continue to. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/transgen...
When it comes to gender identity though, every bigot and transphobe is suddenly a medical expert and says there is no such thing and there are only two genders. In the same way that everyone is only gay or straight, and the only colours that exist are black and white. And that anyone who identifies on the gender spectrum should jolly well stop it.
The funny thing is that society already recognises a gender spectrum because it has words like "tomboy", "girly girl", "sissy", "nancy boy", "wimp", etc.
Edited by ClockworkCupcake on Friday 19th May 22:46
Scary stuff
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/05/19/tra...
Highlights the need for equality laws like C-16 though, when some would have you believe its all about policing pronouns.
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/05/19/tra...
Highlights the need for equality laws like C-16 though, when some would have you believe its all about policing pronouns.
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