The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
descentia said:
Rejecting male gender roles may be part of what TERFs would like to see but they also reject typical female gender roles. So then what ?
Maybe TERFs are non binary but I wouldn't suggest pointing that out to them.
Radical feminists deny harmful gender stereotypes but not the existence of gender itself. Part of their branch of feminism is embracing and redefining womanhood; for example motherhood good, housewife bad. It's the post-structural/modernist feminists who seem to want to render their entire philosophy a tautology by insisting that gender is purely a social construct and therefore doesn't need to exist.Maybe TERFs are non binary but I wouldn't suggest pointing that out to them.
otolith said:
esxste said:
otolith said:
TBH, I have a strong suspicion that "non-binary" is more of a socio-political position than a biological condition.
Upon what do you base your strong suspicions?
It may be adjusting to the choice of clothes
Such as a kilt or straight skirt, with no desire to transition at all. Becoming a more common sight.
Saw a guy on my local High Street today dressed like this
But no one paid him much attention. The guy I saw wore tights, but I guess it's cold. If the look is not too extreme I imagine that it is not so much of a statement. I grew up in a world where a man wouldn't dream of wearing a pink shirt, because pink was for girls. It had to be white or sky blue...
If anything, the media may be pushing the socio-political position to normalize things. I do think the very young should be allowed to just be kids and teaching kids in Reception or Year 1 such topics may overwhelm them. I do note it's also a certain type of social class (rarely do you see working class lads with such sartorial choices), but this was on the streets of Haringey, north London, which must mean people's acceptance is changing. No one seemed to insult him as he went about his business.
Fashion is changing, so it may not be as surprising as before. I think people are beginning to accept that everyone may have their own choice in lifestyle or dress.
I think people are still drowning in a mire of political correctness, and may be afraid to express how they feel.
Edited by The Li-ion King on Wednesday 13th February 13:11
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Non-binary just means that someone doesn't conform to just one or other of the society-imposed roles of 'male' or 'female'. They could consider themselves both, or neither, or somewhere in between.
Given that I can pass as either male or female (as per my last post) you could say I was non-binary.
It can be argued that society did not impose male and female roles on us!!Given that I can pass as either male or female (as per my last post) you could say I was non-binary.
Its pretty much accepted now that a male or female can look, act and behave how they see fit!
That's not really non-binary though, that's just cross dressing (which has been a proud British tradition for hundreds of years).
You need the context of a male/female binary in the first place to wear the clothes of the opposite gender, or participate in an activity commonly associated with the opposite gender. To be transgender you surely have to recognise that you are not A and must therefore move towards B. Being truly non-binary is the preserve of molluscs.
You need the context of a male/female binary in the first place to wear the clothes of the opposite gender, or participate in an activity commonly associated with the opposite gender. To be transgender you surely have to recognise that you are not A and must therefore move towards B. Being truly non-binary is the preserve of molluscs.
otolith said:
esxste said:
otolith said:
Strong views on feminist gender theory. Strong views on social justice topics.
I'm not sure what feminist gender theory is... its the first I've heard of the term.What is it?Essentially the idea that the fixedness of gender roles is oppressive.
It's a concept I largely agree with, but I don't feel the need to bang on about it or to organise my life as a statement against it.
What evidence leads you to this conclusion?
otolith said:
esxste said:
I think you'll find most LGBT people have some pretty strong views on social justice topics; particularly as it applies to their own rights. (and sadly, in many cases, only as it applies to their own rights).
Most of those I know are just normal people with a wide range of social and political attitudes. They're not particularly "woke".LGBT rights are a social justice issue, and for many LGBT people I know, they feel strongly about their own rights.
Your original assertion is that non-binary people identify as such to make a socio-political statement. My experience is that is not the case. I would expect non-binary people to have strong views on the binary gender construct, it directly affects them and how society sees them.
otolith said:
There is a considerable amount of prejudice against trans people. There is somewhat less prejudice against people who simply refuse to conform to social expectations of how a man or woman ought to behave, at least in part because these days (thankfully) there is more acceptance of non-conformance.
Which parts of those assertions do you disagree with?
It's not those specific assertions I disagree with, except that I will point out that when you use the term 'trans', you are including non-binary people. Which parts of those assertions do you disagree with?
What I disagree with is your assertion that CC would have an easier life by not transitioning. A life lived in denial of identity is no easier than a life lived dealing with prejudice.
descentia said:
j_4m said:
That's not really non-binary though, that's just cross dressing (which has been a proud British tradition for hundreds of years).
You need the context of a male/female binary in the first place to wear the clothes of the opposite gender, or participate in an activity commonly associated with the opposite gender. To be transgender you surely have to recognise that you are not A and must therefore move towards B. Being truly non-binary is the preserve of molluscs.
More like you realise that you are B and trying to be A is not going to work. How far along the road to becoming a B then probably depends on how much trying to be an A damages you.You need the context of a male/female binary in the first place to wear the clothes of the opposite gender, or participate in an activity commonly associated with the opposite gender. To be transgender you surely have to recognise that you are not A and must therefore move towards B. Being truly non-binary is the preserve of molluscs.
It still relies on there being an A and a B. Maybe in several hundred thousand years' time we'll evolve a C, providing we're still around.
j_4m said:
Yep, better put!
It still relies on there being an A and a B. Maybe in several hundred thousand years' time we'll evolve a C, providing we're still around.
I think when people say that the idea of gender is a social construct, what they specifically saying is that the idea that a person must be one of the two defined genders that most people identify, that this binary choice is the social construct. It still relies on there being an A and a B. Maybe in several hundred thousand years' time we'll evolve a C, providing we're still around.
As you've identified and agreed with; it's not the case.
esxste said:
otolith said:
There is a considerable amount of prejudice against trans people. There is somewhat less prejudice against people who simply refuse to conform to social expectations of how a man or woman ought to behave, at least in part because these days (thankfully) there is more acceptance of non-conformance.
Which parts of those assertions do you disagree with?
It's not those specific assertions I disagree with, except that I will point out that when you use the term 'trans', you are including non-binary people. Which parts of those assertions do you disagree with?
What I disagree with is your assertion that CC would have an easier life by not transitioning. A life lived in denial of identity is no easier than a life lived dealing with prejudice.
Some people consider trans to include non-binary, talking about binary and non-binary trans people. Others consider them to be separate groups. It's a bit of a semantic "is baldness a hairstyle" distinction.
esxste said:
I think when people say that the idea of gender is a social construct, what they specifically saying is that the idea that a person must be one of the two defined genders that most people identify, that this binary choice is the social construct.
As you've identified and agreed with; it's not the case.
Not quite, there are elements of gender identity which are socialised and those which are not. I don't believe you can fully remove gender from sex, I think that there are biological systems that influence our behaviour and that these are sexually dimorphic. I disagree that my sense of self as a man is socialised behaviour, it implies that with enough conditioning I could identify as female. As you've identified and agreed with; it's not the case.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Non-binary just means that someone doesn't conform to just one or other of the society-imposed roles of 'male' or 'female'. They could consider themselves both, or neither, or somewhere in between.
Given that I can pass as either male or female (as per my last post) you could say I was non-binary.
But isn't the whole subject about you wish to be perceived and that people (rightly) should treat you as you wish to be perceived? So, in that sense aren't you actually a binary woman? It is clearly what you wish to be and how you wish to be treated. Or do you term yourself non-binary as it's easier or as you have to present as male in some situations (when you see your parents for example).Given that I can pass as either male or female (as per my last post) you could say I was non-binary.
On a different sub-subject, I really like reading this thread, yes, there have been a few people that cannot see the transgender "side" (for want of a better term). But in the main I think it's been pretty respectful, certainly more respectful than most threads on NP&E.
It also appears that we have 3[?] transgender girls on PH, all of whom have been here for years and are huge petrolheads, no one seems to have just joined this PH to have an argument on this thread (which does seem to happen more often on other threads).
I thank all 3 for their contributions here, it's educational, eye opening in places and appreciated.
Edited by AshVX220 on Wednesday 13th February 16:33
joshcowin said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Non-binary just means that someone doesn't conform to just one or other of the society-imposed roles of 'male' or 'female'. They could consider themselves both, or neither, or somewhere in between.
Given that I can pass as either male or female (as per my last post) you could say I was non-binary.
It can be argued that society did not impose male and female roles on us!!Given that I can pass as either male or female (as per my last post) you could say I was non-binary.
Its pretty much accepted now that a male or female can look, act and behave how they see fit!
AshVX220 said:
But isn't the whole subject about you wish to be perceived and that people (rightly) should treat you as you wish to be perceived? So, in that sense aren't you actually a binary woman? It is clearly what you wish to be and how you wish to be treated. Or do you term yourself non-binary as it's easier or as you have to present as male in some situations (when you see your parents for example).
I guess it's semantics really - either works. Really, I'm just "me". How I present are just facets of the same diamond. It's just the sparkliest facet is my girl side. 
AshVX220 said:
On a different sub-subject, I really like reading this thread, yes, there have been a few people that cannot see the transgender "side" (for want of a better term). But in the main I think it's been pretty respectful, certainly more respectful than most threads on NP&E.
It also appears that we have 3[?] transgender girls on PH, all of whom have been here for years and are huge petrolheads, no one seems to have just joined this PH to have an argument on this thread (which does seem to happen more often on other threads).
I thank all 3 for their contributions here, it's educational, eye opening in places and appreciated.
Thanks. It's been a bit of a slog at times but I'd like to think that, at the very least, some uninformed opinions have become informed ones, even if the position itself hasn't changed. It also appears that we have 3[?] transgender girls on PH, all of whom have been here for years and are huge petrolheads, no one seems to have just joined this PH to have an argument on this thread (which does seem to happen more often on other threads).
I thank all 3 for their contributions here, it's educational, eye opening in places and appreciated.
The reason I came out on this thread is because I felt that trans women were being talked about as an abstract concept, and I felt it was important for it to be a discussion between real people, rather than a discussion about people.
If that makes any sense.
(And, frankly, I had been a bit of an open secret amongst PH regulars for years)
Clockwork Cupcake said:
AshVX220 said:
But isn't the whole subject about you wish to be perceived and that people (rightly) should treat you as you wish to be perceived? So, in that sense aren't you actually a binary woman? It is clearly what you wish to be and how you wish to be treated. Or do you term yourself non-binary as it's easier or as you have to present as male in some situations (when you see your parents for example).
I guess it's semantics really - either works. Really, I'm just "me". How I present are just facets of the same diamond. It's just the sparkliest facet is my girl side. AshVX220 said:
On a different sub-subject, I really like reading this thread, yes, there have been a few people that cannot see the transgender "side" (for want of a better term). But in the main I think it's been pretty respectful, certainly more respectful than most threads on NP&E.
It also appears that we have 3[?] transgender girls on PH, all of whom have been here for years and are huge petrolheads, no one seems to have just joined this PH to have an argument on this thread (which does seem to happen more often on other threads).
I thank all 3 for their contributions here, it's educational, eye opening in places and appreciated.
Thanks. It's been a bit of a slog at times but I'd like to think that, at the very least, some uninformed opinions have become informed ones, even if the position itself hasn't changed. It also appears that we have 3[?] transgender girls on PH, all of whom have been here for years and are huge petrolheads, no one seems to have just joined this PH to have an argument on this thread (which does seem to happen more often on other threads).
I thank all 3 for their contributions here, it's educational, eye opening in places and appreciated.
The reason I came out on this thread is because I felt that trans women were being talked about as an abstract concept, and I felt it was important for it to be a discussion between real people, rather than a discussion about people.
If that makes any sense.
(And, frankly, I had been a bit of an open secret amongst PH regulars for years)
Are you a woman?
I'm just me.
Are you are man?
I'm just me.
Are you this/that?
I'm just me.
What are you?
I'm just me.
As are all of us.
We're all just different me's.
Good luck to all of us me's.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
PorkRind said:
I can tell 100%, its so obvious, if m > f its facial features such as adams apple, jaw line, forehead. Hands. Feet. Height. Body shape, if they speak; voice..
How do you know you have a 100% success rate? Have you verified the birth gender of every person you have ever met? Of course you haven't.otolith said:
Yes, that's a fair point, I wasn't denying the necessity of doing so, just pointing out the hardship involved.
Some people consider trans to include non-binary, talking about binary and non-binary trans people. Others consider them to be separate groups. It's a bit of a semantic "is baldness a hairstyle" distinction.
(Near) baldness is a hairstyle as demonstrated by Magic Johnson's son, EJ...Some people consider trans to include non-binary, talking about binary and non-binary trans people. Others consider them to be separate groups. It's a bit of a semantic "is baldness a hairstyle" distinction.
What box would EJ go into? Openly gay, yet wears a skirt, but won't transition
I think for most people, although trans is a very general term, it covers all bases that cannot be easily categorized. I think Joe Public is overwhelmed with different terms and doesn't know how to respond correctly. For some, it's just clothes, or a fashion statement (Rich Kids do anything for attention) and cannot easily be defined...
Edited by The Li-ion King on Thursday 14th February 06:32
PorkRind said:
Not sure its wise posting up pics of your kids online, you know what a bunch of freaks there are about the internet. Next i'll be having some leftist protecting and normalising the paedo types. Cant win can ya?!
Don't tell me - you have a 100% success rate in spotting paedophiles too. 
PorkRind said:
Not sure its wise posting up pics of your kids online, you know what a bunch of freaks there are about the internet. Next i'll be having some leftist protecting and normalising the paedo types. Cant win can ya?!
FFS. Do you really think that this thread is a portal for such people? And if so, why repeat the image? Perhaps we should stop posting images of cars lest somebody fetishises them also?
I suggest you come out from behind yourself and take a long hard look backwards.
The Li-ion King said:
What box would EJ go into? Openly gay, yet wears a skirt, but won't transition
Well clearly he's a man, and he's gay. Skirt has nothing to do with it.Here's a relevant article that discusses why gender fluidity can be a problem for gay people (and by extension, the rest of us). The very definition of being a gay man is a man that is attracted to other men, removing the 'maleness' from that equation destroys a fundamental part of gay identity.
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