The Gender Non-binary debate.

[Mark-C]

PorkRind said:

Not sure its wise posting up pics of your kids online, you know what a bunch of freaks there are about the internet. Next i'll be having some leftist protecting and normalising the paedo types. Cant win can ya?!

I'm not aware of leftists that protect or normalise paedophilia .... or what paedophilia has to do with this thread ...

[Clockwork Cupcake]

j_4m said:

Well clearly he's a man, and he's gay. Skirt has nothing to do with it.

Here's a relevant article that discusses why gender fluidity can be a problem for gay people (and by extension, the rest of us). The very definition of being a gay man is a man that is attracted to other men, removing the 'maleness' from that equation destroys a fundamental part of gay identity.

My father has some peculiarly mixed-up views. When I first tried discussing my gender identity with him, he appeared to conflate trans women with gay men, because some gay men are effeminate, and confused sexuality with gender identity. The idea that gay men are men who fancy men, and that whilst some may be slightly effeminate it doesn't mean they want to be women, seemed like a completely alien concept to him.

We have not had many more conversations on the matter.

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

Trophy Husband said:

PorkRind said:

Not sure its wise posting up pics of your kids online, you know what a bunch of freaks there are about the internet. Next i'll be having some leftist protecting and normalising the paedo types. Cant win can ya?!

FFS. Do you really think that this thread is a portal for such people? And if so, why repeat the image?

Perhaps we should stop posting images of cars lest somebody fetishises them also?

I suggest you come out from behind yourself and take a long hard look backwards.

Not this st again, come on! It's an innocent photo, not one of him in swimming trunks in the beach, or in the bath. Is he to not have photos of him on social media either? What about at school, where anyone could theoretically snap him, how about he sends him to school in a burka just to be safe?

We need to protect children, but get a perspective.

[The Li-ion King]

j_4m said:

Well clearly he's a man, and he's gay. Skirt has nothing to do with it.

Here's a relevant article that discusses why gender fluidity can be a problem for gay people (and by extension, the rest of us). The very definition of being a gay man is a man that is attracted to other men, removing the 'maleness' from that equation destroys a fundamental part of gay identity.

Well, most gay men would be attracted to regular dressed men, and not as someone looking like a woman, as EJ Johnson does... EJ often dresses like this, unlese he conflates it with femininity hence the clothes. Apparently there are 72 genders now, so he could be any one of those... or he just finds trousers boring, who knows? I guess he's in the gender fluid box then

[Clockwork Cupcake]

The Li-ion King said:

I guess he's in the gender fluid box then

Quite possibly. And even the term "gender fluid" is pretty fluid.

People do seem to get themselves tied up in semantic knots over what are really just clothes.

Eddie Izzard, for example, is very much a self-confessed transvestite. He considers himself totally male, but just prefers women's clothes. Or, as he puts it, "They are not women's clothes - they are my clothes because I have bought them".

The Li-ion King said:

Well, most gay men would be attracted to regular dressed men, and not as someone looking like a woman

You'd be surprised, actually.

I have had a number of men want to date me, and it subsequently turned out they actually wanted a gay relationship without the curse, or were attracted to the female form but wanted some cock, or simply saw me as a taboo or fetish object. Needless to say I wasn't interested.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Thursday 14th February 12:19

[PorkRind]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Don't tell me - you have a 100% success rate in spotting paedophiles too.

No just those who choose to dress up different to societal norms.

[anonymous-user]

PorkRind said:

No just those who choose to dress up different to societal norms.

Are just here on a wind up or have I missed your point?

[PorkRind]

desolate said:

Are just here on a wind up or have I missed your point?

We each have our own opinions dont we.

[anonymous-user]

PorkRind said:

We each have our own opinions dont we.

You don't seem to be posting opinions - just cheap jibes.

[j_4m]

PorkRind said:

No just those who choose to dress up different to societal norms.

Flashy tracksuit? Big cigar? Elizabeth Duke collection?

[The Li-ion King]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

The Li-ion King said:

I guess he's in the gender fluid box then

Quite possibly. And even the term "gender fluid" is pretty fluid.

People do seem to get themselves tied up in semantic knots over what are really just clothes.

Eddie Izzard, for example, is very much a self-confessed transvestite. He considers himself totally male, but just prefers women's clothes. Or, as he puts it, "They are not women's clothes - they are my clothes because I have bought them".

The Li-ion King said:

Well, most gay men would be attracted to regular dressed men, and not as someone looking like a woman

You'd be surprised, actually.

I have had a number of men want to date me, and it subsequently turned out they actually wanted a gay relationship without the curse, or were attracted to the female form but wanted some cock, or simply saw me as a taboo or fetish object. Needless to say I wasn't interested.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Thursday 14th February 12:19

Eddie Izzard has had a boob job in the last year, according to news articles in the Mirror. He plans to get into politics next.

The picture of the bald guy in the office skirts posted earlier (Mark Mark on Pinterest) shows for some it is just clothes, he says his wife loves his quirky look. Some guys just prefer the look compared to limited trousers / jeans / shorts / tracksuit bottoms choice that men get. Could be the same deal with EJ Johnson and others. Saw this guy in kids movie Skate Kitchen


at the bottom left, bearded, but in a Fendi pencil skirt, so perhaps this is just millennial fashion. I guess these are the modern day kilts

People do get tied up in knots over clothes. If everyone could just wear what they like, would it lessen the issues surrounding dysphoria? Every summer, there's guaranteed an article about men in skirts or dresses on a hot day, trying to escape the heat... or schoolboys such as Louis Fice
from last year.

A kilt is anatomically better for guys, as our family jewels can overheat in tighter clothing (such as seams cutting into the crotch), leading to testicular cancer. But for most guys they wish to stay within parameters that means no ridicule from other guys. Quite surprising when you see what passes for jeans nowadays. If someone had a £1 coin in the pocket of typical skinny jeans, you could tell if it was heads or tails

So our Porsche enthusiast now has a Pinterest page with his latest look... I can't see many guys liking the shoes though
https://www.pinterest.de/Mark_as_in_Mark/2019-febr...

Edited by The Li-ion King on Friday 15th February 17:49

[gregs656]

j_4m said:

Well clearly he's a man, and he's gay. Skirt has nothing to do with it.

Here's a relevant article that discusses why gender fluidity can be a problem for gay people (and by extension, the rest of us). The very definition of being a gay man is a man that is attracted to other men, removing the 'maleness' from that equation destroys a fundamental part of gay identity.

Thanks for the link, good article. The proposed American legislation seems like a bit of a mess to me. I still think Britain probably has the right balance for now.

I also agree that the lived experience counts. There is a fairly good TED talk from a trans woman who talks about some of the day to day differences she experiences as a woman - she also talks about her relationship to her elderly parents which I think is quite touching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYx7HaUlMY

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Interesting article.

As you say, I think the objections are as much down to the legislative language than to the rejection of transgender people per se. Although, having said that, a lot of TERFs *do* reject us.

[amusingduck]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Interesting article.
Although, having said that, a lot of TERFs *do* reject us.

All of them do, don't they? Otherwise they'd be TIRFs?

[j_4m]

Yes, that's definitely not an article coming from the TERF point of view, more a discussion of what could happen should legislation go a bit crazy. I don't think government can ever give us answers to what are fundamentally social problems, much less by trying to define what are essentially metaphysical issues in law.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

gregs656 said:

I also agree that the lived experience counts. There is a fairly good TED talk from a trans woman who talks about some of the day to day differences she experiences as a woman - she also talks about her relationship to her elderly parents which I think is quite touching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYx7HaUlMY

That's a really great talk. Thank you for posting that.

"What do any of us really know about the shoes of which we have never walked?". I like that.

Edit: I think she raises some interesting points. Of course a trans woman will have different life experiences than a cis woman. And, as she alluded to near the end, a black woman is going to have different life experiences to a white woman. Especially in America. Do those experiences negate her womanhood? No, I don't think so. Especially as she is learning very quickly how women are treated differently to men. Being able to "compare and contrast" is quite the eye opener.

Certainly I will never berate a women for needing much more luggage than a man, nor for taking 3x as long to get ready. Trust me - unless you want us to wear the same clothes as you and wear no make up, then we do.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Thursday 14th February 16:25

[Clockwork Cupcake]

amusingduck said:

All of them do, don't they? Otherwise they'd be TIRFs?

Fair point.

[anonymous-user]

j_4m said:

The Li-ion King said:

What box would EJ go into? Openly gay, yet wears a skirt, but won't transition

Well clearly he's a man, and he's gay. Skirt has nothing to do with it.

Here's a relevant article that discusses why gender fluidity can be a problem for gay people (and by extension, the rest of us). The very definition of being a gay man is a man that is attracted to other men, removing the 'maleness' from that equation destroys a fundamental part of gay identity.

I think there has been a couple of studies that generally point out that men who identify as gay are way less likely to have transgender feelings than men who identify as straight or bi

Attraction itself is a completely different concept from gender identity as has been mentioned, but I think it's common for trans women who previously identified as straight or bi when living as Men to get the wires of attraction crossed with identity, which throws who you are attracted to somewhat off. This doesn't happen as much with gay men as they are already attracted to and often comfortable with the idea of masculinity.

Before I begun transition I never saw myself as gay or being with a guy. Believe me, after years of feeling out of place and mocked for so called effeminate traits, it's something I had thought long and hard about, but the cap never really fit.

There were guys I'd fall for on a social and intellectual level, but all that masculinity when I valued femininity so much was a bit of a no-no for me in a long term relationship.

A few months into transitioning and as I become more comfortable expressing and enjoying my own femininity, men are starting to become a LOT more interesting to me than they ever have been . Now I can see some of appeal of masculinity/men now that I don't have to try and force that sort of image to the world.

[Noodle1982]

Bit of a paradox for you.

Gay fella number 1 is dating gay fella number 2.

Gay fella number 2 has had for as long as he can remember, gender dysphoria

Gay fella number 2 starts to identify as female with the full support of gay fella number 1 and they stay a couple.

Gay fella number 1 is now dating, as society expects us to acknowledge, a female.

Is gay fella number one still gay? If he is then that would mean his partner is male but then that would be misgendering his partner.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Noodle1982 said:

Bit of a paradox for you.

Gay fella number 1 is dating gay fella number 2.

Gay fella number 2 has had for as long as he can remember, gender dysphoria

Gay fella number 2 starts to identify as female with the full support of gay fella number 1 and they stay a couple.

Gay fella number 1 is now dating, as society expects us to acknowledge, a female.

Is gay fella number one still gay? If he is then that would mean his partner is male but then that would be misgendering his partner.

Why don't you ask him?