The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
descentia said:
Don't keep feeding the troll ,
Oh and George I asked a question for you to answer . I know it's not something you usually have to do as most of your time seems to be spent asking them however to save you searching I'll repeat it.
Would you consider yourself less of a man if you lost your penis or testes ?
I would say yes. Much like I would assume you would feel less of a woman if you could not reproduce tooOh and George I asked a question for you to answer . I know it's not something you usually have to do as most of your time seems to be spent asking them however to save you searching I'll repeat it.
Would you consider yourself less of a man if you lost your penis or testes ?
To try and pull this back from the name-calling as this thread has previously been really informative rather than plain nasty....
Picking up on the Bigby closet-gay references, does that make homosexuality a social-construct as well?
Reading the thread it looks to me like the consensus is that concept of gender is based upon societies wider perspective of what makes a man different (or the same) as a woman, all linked but sitting separately to the biological spectrum of male and female sex. Sex is biological and gender is a social-construct.
Social views and tolerances are the determining factor over how comfortable people are to present in the way they feel is natural which is why we celebrate Pride events here in the UK, but that the same would have you arrested in other parts of the world. That doesn't mean there are fewer gay people born there, just many more closet-gay people. Having the freedom to come-out and be openly gay being linked to the same tolerances in society as being openly transgender, therefore is being gay a social construct in the same way we are being told transgender is?
As in, if sex is biological and gender is a social-construct, is being attracted to a person of the same sex biological and being gay also a social construct?
Picking up on the Bigby closet-gay references, does that make homosexuality a social-construct as well?
Reading the thread it looks to me like the consensus is that concept of gender is based upon societies wider perspective of what makes a man different (or the same) as a woman, all linked but sitting separately to the biological spectrum of male and female sex. Sex is biological and gender is a social-construct.
Social views and tolerances are the determining factor over how comfortable people are to present in the way they feel is natural which is why we celebrate Pride events here in the UK, but that the same would have you arrested in other parts of the world. That doesn't mean there are fewer gay people born there, just many more closet-gay people. Having the freedom to come-out and be openly gay being linked to the same tolerances in society as being openly transgender, therefore is being gay a social construct in the same way we are being told transgender is?
As in, if sex is biological and gender is a social-construct, is being attracted to a person of the same sex biological and being gay also a social construct?
The Surveyor said:
To try and pull this back from the name-calling as this thread has previously been really informative rather than plain nasty....
Picking up on the Bigby closet-gay references, does that make homosexuality a social-construct as well?
Reading the thread it looks to me like the consensus is that concept of gender is based upon societies wider perspective of what makes a man different (or the same) as a woman, all linked but sitting separately to the biological spectrum of male and female sex. Sex is biological and gender is a social-construct.
Social views and tolerances are the determining factor over how comfortable people are to present in the way they feel is natural which is why we celebrate Pride events here in the UK, but that the same would have you arrested in other parts of the world. That doesn't mean there are fewer gay people born there, just many more closet-gay people. Having the freedom to come-out and be openly gay being linked to the same tolerances in society as being openly transgender, therefore is being gay a social construct in the same way we are being told transgender is?
As in, if sex is biological and gender is a social-construct, is being attracted to a person of the same sex biological and being gay also a social construct?
I don't think there is really a definite answer to being biologically gay is there? I have personally always believed it is nurture and not nature but happy to be proved otherwisePicking up on the Bigby closet-gay references, does that make homosexuality a social-construct as well?
Reading the thread it looks to me like the consensus is that concept of gender is based upon societies wider perspective of what makes a man different (or the same) as a woman, all linked but sitting separately to the biological spectrum of male and female sex. Sex is biological and gender is a social-construct.
Social views and tolerances are the determining factor over how comfortable people are to present in the way they feel is natural which is why we celebrate Pride events here in the UK, but that the same would have you arrested in other parts of the world. That doesn't mean there are fewer gay people born there, just many more closet-gay people. Having the freedom to come-out and be openly gay being linked to the same tolerances in society as being openly transgender, therefore is being gay a social construct in the same way we are being told transgender is?
As in, if sex is biological and gender is a social-construct, is being attracted to a person of the same sex biological and being gay also a social construct?
Aphex said:
I don't think there is really a definite answer to being biologically gay is there? I have personally always believed it is nurture and not nature but happy to be proved otherwise
You see, I've always felt it was the other way around, you are born biologically gay rather than become gay. Some people choose to suppress it (the closet gay as above), some people feel comfortable to embrace it. Hence the 'is being gay' a similar social-construct as being transgender. Aphex said:
The Surveyor said:
To try and pull this back from the name-calling as this thread has previously been really informative rather than plain nasty....
Picking up on the Bigby closet-gay references, does that make homosexuality a social-construct as well?
Reading the thread it looks to me like the consensus is that concept of gender is based upon societies wider perspective of what makes a man different (or the same) as a woman, all linked but sitting separately to the biological spectrum of male and female sex. Sex is biological and gender is a social-construct.
Social views and tolerances are the determining factor over how comfortable people are to present in the way they feel is natural which is why we celebrate Pride events here in the UK, but that the same would have you arrested in other parts of the world. That doesn't mean there are fewer gay people born there, just many more closet-gay people. Having the freedom to come-out and be openly gay being linked to the same tolerances in society as being openly transgender, therefore is being gay a social construct in the same way we are being told transgender is?
As in, if sex is biological and gender is a social-construct, is being attracted to a person of the same sex biological and being gay also a social construct?
I don't think there is really a definite answer to being biologically gay is there? I have personally always believed it is nurture and not nature but happy to be proved otherwisePicking up on the Bigby closet-gay references, does that make homosexuality a social-construct as well?
Reading the thread it looks to me like the consensus is that concept of gender is based upon societies wider perspective of what makes a man different (or the same) as a woman, all linked but sitting separately to the biological spectrum of male and female sex. Sex is biological and gender is a social-construct.
Social views and tolerances are the determining factor over how comfortable people are to present in the way they feel is natural which is why we celebrate Pride events here in the UK, but that the same would have you arrested in other parts of the world. That doesn't mean there are fewer gay people born there, just many more closet-gay people. Having the freedom to come-out and be openly gay being linked to the same tolerances in society as being openly transgender, therefore is being gay a social construct in the same way we are being told transgender is?
As in, if sex is biological and gender is a social-construct, is being attracted to a person of the same sex biological and being gay also a social construct?
Personally I believe that you're predisposed to being gay by nature, but that it takes nurture to allow that to come out.
If it was purely nurture, then there would be no gay people whatsoever in countries where it is actively persecuted to the point of death. And yet there are.
By way of example see
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/secret...
Clockwork Cupcake said:
I think it is a very complex subject, and also that we don't yet fully understand the human brain.
Personally I believe that you're predisposed to being gay by nature, but that it takes nurture to allow that to come out.
If it was purely nurture, then there would be no gay people whatsoever in countries where it is actively persecuted to the point of death. And yet there are.
By way of example see
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/secret...
To be fair, if I'm told I'm never allowed to eat ice cream by way of death and then they leave me alone when I think I can get away with trying it. I'm trying it Personally I believe that you're predisposed to being gay by nature, but that it takes nurture to allow that to come out.
If it was purely nurture, then there would be no gay people whatsoever in countries where it is actively persecuted to the point of death. And yet there are.
By way of example see
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/secret...
I agree though, I don't think we'll get to the bottom of it (excuse the pun) for years and everyone is welcome to their opinion on it
j_4m said:
otolith said:
Are they, I wonder, being equally brave/stupid/egotistical in finding their 1RM?
I’d say so, they’re not your average cardio bunny. A few of them compete in national competitions.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
I think it is a very complex subject, and also that we don't yet fully understand the human brain.
Personally I believe that you're predisposed to being gay by nature, but that it takes nurture to allow that to come out.
If it was purely nurture, then there would be no gay people whatsoever in countries where it is actively persecuted to the point of death. And yet there are.
Hmm...Personally I believe that you're predisposed to being gay by nature, but that it takes nurture to allow that to come out.
If it was purely nurture, then there would be no gay people whatsoever in countries where it is actively persecuted to the point of death. And yet there are.
To me that sounds like you need both nature AND nurture to be gay, but I would say it's entirely nature, and that the "nurture" aspect only comes into play because of society's tendency to oppose (until lately) homosexuality. If there was never any opposition, there'd be no "allowing it to come out"?
amusingduck said:
Hmm...
To me that sounds like you need both nature AND nurture to be gay, but I would say it's entirely nature, and that the "nurture" aspect only comes into play because of society's tendency to oppose (until lately) homosexuality. If there was never any opposition, there'd be no "allowing it to come out"?
That's a fair point. Perhaps you are right. To me that sounds like you need both nature AND nurture to be gay, but I would say it's entirely nature, and that the "nurture" aspect only comes into play because of society's tendency to oppose (until lately) homosexuality. If there was never any opposition, there'd be no "allowing it to come out"?
I just kind of meant that you need a tolerant society in order to be openly gay. I think perhaps I wasn't very clear that I meant that.
Most complex traits have elements of both genetic and environmental influences, but I'm not sure what environmental effects would cause someone to become gay - unless you are considering in utero effects to be nurture, for which there is evidence relating to both homosexuality and sex atypical behaviour link. I think the idea that it is something to do with parenting is discredited.
Vandenberg said:
They certainly are mainly by some of the more angry twitter activist type of Trans. I have encountered both Lesbians and Bisexuals accused of being transphobic, entirely due to rejecting Trans as potential partners.
To me that seems off the mark, surely its all down to attraction if there is mutual attraction shag away, if not dont.
Am I Ginner/Salad Dodger phobic as I have zero attraction for fat ginner women?. No I dont treat fat ginners any differently than anyone else, I just dont have zero desire to stick my dick in one. Never have and never will.
"Never will" marks you out as prejudiced, yes. You're quite literally prejudging. To me that seems off the mark, surely its all down to attraction if there is mutual attraction shag away, if not dont.
Am I Ginner/Salad Dodger phobic as I have zero attraction for fat ginner women?. No I dont treat fat ginners any differently than anyone else, I just dont have zero desire to stick my dick in one. Never have and never will.
Chances are when you meet a well proportioned red haired lady, you're not going to be attracted. But, if your not prejudiced about it, i,e don't have the concept in your head that you never will have the desire to "stick your dick" in one, maybe there is someone who is well proportioned with ginger hair can win your affections with some feature or trait that has nothing to do with their size or hair colour. Maybe not... but your judging that person for the unique individual they are.
Someone simply identifying as bisexual does not, to my mind, imply any prejudice. It is as some have noted, an out-dated label, the "bi" part rooted in the idea that there are only 2 genders. However, I think there are plenty of older people who have identified as bisexual all their lives, before the awareness of Trans was (rightfully) raised.
Anyone who says "I will never have sexual relations with a Trans person" is transphobic. It's prejudice in the same way I described above.
As you mention, its down to if there is mutual attraction. Prejudice precludes the possibility of mutual attraction.
It can be simply put as "Never say "never", judge individuals on their unique mix of traits."
Rivenink said:
Anyone who says "I will never have sexual relations with a Trans person" is transphobic. It's prejudice in the same way I described above.
As you mention, its down to if there is mutual attraction. Prejudice precludes the possibility of mutual attraction.
It can be simply put as "Never say "never", judge individuals on their unique mix of traits."
and saying "I will never have sexual relations with a man" is homophobic?As you mention, its down to if there is mutual attraction. Prejudice precludes the possibility of mutual attraction.
It can be simply put as "Never say "never", judge individuals on their unique mix of traits."
Androgynous said:
That does a disservice to the word transphobic, it's just an expression of preference not a phobia.
A preference due to pre-judging is still pre-judgemental though. Personally, my preferences are along the lines of "not my preference, but never say never" rather than "never".
amusingduck said:
and saying "I will never have sexual relations with a man" is homophobic?
Not homophobic per se but certainly closed-minded. You never know if you might meet a guy who totally rocks your world and makes you reappraise your sexuality. Or, at least, say "I'm not gay but..."The chances may be incredibly small, for sure. But to acknowledge there is an infinitesimal chance is the difference between an open mind and a closed one.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Androgynous said:
That does a disservice to the word transphobic, it's just an expression of preference not a phobia.
A preference due to pre-judging is still pre-judgemental though. Personally, my preferences are along the lines of "not my preference, but never say never" rather than "never".
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