The Gender Non-binary debate.

[xjay1337]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

I very much doubt you have done a lot of research on this, because they don't.

It's the stereotypical impression that a lot of people have. Including my mother about me, since she refuses to disabuse herself of this by actually looking at a photo of me.

The papers do very little to alter people's perceptions though, because "look at the ridiculous tranny" stories sell much better than "looks just like a woman" stories.

Go onto Flickr and you will see a lot of trans women who look very convincing. You might even stumble across my Flickr stream.

Mind you, having said that, you will also find a lot of pics on Flickr that reinforce your opinion too. But I certainly don't think it is valid to say that most trans women look like that because they most certainly do not

I know, I use a certain level of hyperbole with my example.

I'm not going to go nosing around so don't need to worry :-).

[PorkRind]

George Smiley said:

No, he is straight, this means he would never perform a sexual act with a man for sexual satisfaction/gratification - that's not closed minded that is just plain fact.

Am I closed minded because I would never perform a Mr Coolhands down the local stables? Am I closed minded because I wouldn't kiss Tubgirl after a party? No, I'm not into animals and I'm not into whatever the fk tubgirl did in the name of art.

There is simply no way on this or any other planet that you can call someone closed minded because they wouldn't want to dip their wick in someone of the same sex if they are not of the homo/pan/bi/trans/whatever label I missed persuasion.

If anything, you and 8.4L have shown the greatest level of closed minded blinkered views.

Its their little club, theyve nothing else to offer on this forum so they try and get their satisfaction and attention by being head of the extraordinary 1% of people with dysphoria or theyre doing it to be different, and cool. They belong on tumblr really !

[Clockwork Cupcake]

xjay1337 said:

I'm sure CC was a "normal" male. Until she decided that she didn't want to be and began her journey of transitioning.

I don't think I ever felt 'normal' nor allowed to feel normal. But I certainly succeeded as passing as male (or some "sissy" (sic) facsimile thereof) for a lot of my life, that much it true.

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

xjay1337 said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

I very much doubt you have done a lot of research on this, because they don't.

It's the stereotypical impression that a lot of people have. Including my mother about me, since she refuses to disabuse herself of this by actually looking at a photo of me.

The papers do very little to alter people's perceptions though, because "look at the ridiculous tranny" stories sell much better than "looks just like a woman" stories.

Go onto Flickr and you will see a lot of trans women who look very convincing. You might even stumble across my Flickr stream.

Mind you, having said that, you will also find a lot of pics on Flickr that reinforce your opinion too. But I certainly don't think it is valid to say that most trans women look like that because they most certainly do not

I know, I use a certain level of hyperbole with my example.

I'm not going to go nosing around so don't need to worry :-).

This was a good post by Joanne, I hope at least you can take acceptance in what was said, as a learning curve (for want of a better expression)

[Davos123]

xjay1337 said:

who you sleep with. To who you fancy.

Jesus Christ, the idiocy in this statement is incredible. Who I sleep with is a choice, who I am attracted to is not. I don't look at a person neutrally and then decide "I'm going to find this person hot".

[Clockwork Cupcake]

PorkRind said:

Its their little club, theyve nothing else to offer on this forum

You: 2,690 posts,143 months
Me: 58,632 posts, 210 months

Now, I know you will shoot back that my greater post count means that all my posts have been low quality and worthless. And maybe they are, but I think I have contributed a lot more, and over a longer time, to PH than you have.

[gregs656]

xjay1337 said:

Ummm, it is a choice.
Everything in life is a choice.
From what you eat to who you sleep with. To who you fancy.

Not an aesthetic choice, no. It's a very important decision. But a decision never the less.

I'm sure CC was a "normal" male. Until she decided that she didn't want to be and began her journey of transitioning.

No, no it isn't.

You definitely do not choose who you fancy for example, you can't chose who to fall in love with, you don't chose your sexual preference and you don't chose to be trans.

I am sure, because she has said so - as I think has every other trans contributor to this thread - that they knew something was different with them from a young age, even if it took a while to put the pieces together.

I think this is the root of the confusion here. This completely explains why you still see trans women as men, for example, because you think they were just like you until one day they decided to be something else. Whereas my position is more like they were *always* trans, a trans woman was never a man in the sense you are, the woman was always there.

To be absolutely clear - you might choose to transition - but you don't choose to be trans.

[j_4m]

This thread definitely peaked with quantum blowjobs.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

gregs656 said:

To be absolutely clear - you might choose to transition - but you don't choose to be trans.

Beautifully and succinctly put. I might have to nick that for a blog post sometime.

[Aphex]

gregs656 said:

To be absolutely clear - you might choose to transition - but you don't choose to be trans.

Which isn't provable either way so you'll have to agree to disagree

[Clockwork Cupcake]

I think it's worth giving xjay1337 credit for the fact that he's not misgendering me, and is using female pronouns for me.

This isn't a sarky comment, btw. I mean genuine credit to him - it does show a degree of acceptance.

[xjay1337]

I understand that Gregs.
Maybe the word decision is being taken a bit literally here.
What I am trying to say is that you decide to do something to address the way you feel.

You have a choice as to who you fancy though..... we all have our likes and preferences and those are decisions - even if at a very subconscious level and a very long time ago.


Then again that opens a whole other can of worms and is too deep for my puny little brain to work out late on a Thursday.

[xjay1337]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

I think it's worth giving xjay1337 credit for the fact that he's not misgendering me, and is using female pronouns for me.

This isn't a sarky comment, btw. I mean genuine credit to him - it does show a degree of acceptance.

As I have said before I am fully accepting of you and every other trans person!!!

Thanks by the way, I guess? Lol

[Davos123]

Aphex said:

gregs656 said:

To be absolutely clear - you might choose to transition - but you don't choose to be trans.

Which isn't provable either way so you'll have to agree to disagree

Why the fk would anybody choose to be trans? Do you really think a person born male and that has no issues with their gender is going to suddenly decide that they're just not being abused, beaten and murdered enough?

[Clockwork Cupcake]

xjay1337 said:

Thanks by the way, I guess? Lol

It was meant genuinely and without sub-text.

[Aphex]

Davos123 said:

Why the fk would anybody choose to be trans? Do you really think a person born male and that has no issues with their gender is going to suddenly decide that they're just not being abused, beaten and murdered enough?

I think it is alot more complicated than that

[Davos123]

Aphex said:

I think it is alot more complicated than that

Please explain. I genuinely would love to know why you think somebody suddenly chooses to reject a gender they identify with for one they don't.

I'm sure you can describe some incredibly niche scenario where that might happen (like for significant financial gain) but it's not going to be the lived experience of basically any trans person on earth.

[InitialDave]

V1nce Fox said:

Is it wrong to want to differentiate between a trans woman and a biologically "original" woman though?

Depends if it really matters, I'd say, hence the stuff with women's sports previously.

Going about your daily business, whether you think of yourself as a woman, how you dress etc, on that front I don't think it matters much. So for the most part, if you present me with a trans woman, I'll treat her as a woman and be done with it.

Competing physically where it gives you a performance edge, or medical stuff where your sex changes your susceptibility to certain diseases etc, with that kind of thing, I think differentiating when someone is trans is logical.

[Aphex]

Davos123 said:

Please explain. I genuinely would love to know why you think somebody suddenly chooses to reject a gender they identify with for one they don't.

I'm sure you can describe some incredibly niche scenario where that might happen (like for significant financial gain) but it's not going to be the lived experience of basically any trans person on earth.

I think several pivotal cues during their development as a child and throughout adolescence push them in that direction. Most they wouldn't be aware of much like I wasn't when I was brought up and ended up heterosexual and still male. I don't see any negativity in being gay or trans though so I'm not sure why it'd be seen as a negative?

If there is science to say that people are born like it and its provable then great, doesn't really make any difference to me. As far as I'm aware, no one knows either way for sure

[j_4m]

Davos123 said:

Please explain. I genuinely would love to know why you think somebody suddenly chooses to reject a gender they identify with for one they don't.

I'm sure you can describe some incredibly niche scenario where that might happen (like for significant financial gain) but it's not going to be the lived experience of basically any trans person on earth.

People are impressionable, they fetishise and obsess over things. I can believe there are people out there who want to be part of the social movement associated with gay and trans rights and go to any lengths to get involved. The same kind of people who engage in class tourism.

This does not in anyway delegitimise transgender people or support the idea that it is a choice, but for sure there are people out there who chose rather than were compelled by their sense of self.

Edited by j_4m on Thursday 21st February 21:55