The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
Vandenberg said:
I only encounter those pronouns with a small % of US students, to be honest I find it easier than using some of their names.
From what I have seen there is a big element of Look at me, I am special, I am different, please notice me, but I see that across the board with young adults trying to find their way in life.
The handful of transgender people I’ve met have all been using either of the standard pronouns. I think ‘zhe/xer’ seems to be one of those internet bogeymen that really isn’t common outside of vociferous bloggers.From what I have seen there is a big element of Look at me, I am special, I am different, please notice me, but I see that across the board with young adults trying to find their way in life.
Pronouns really aren’t a big deal, how many times do you actually use them in a face to face conversation unless talking about someone not present?
Michaelbailey said:
Then theres gender fluid... that seems to have serious complications with things like say going to prison. Not sure how much of the "Progressive movement" is for the genuine good of trans and how much is to push a political point.
Well, here's the thing. Sometimes I just can't be arsed to put my makeup on, and just pull on a t-shirt and jeans, and pop on down to the shops to get a pint of milk, passing as male. People obviously refer to me as "sir" and "he" when I do that, and that's fair enough and I don't challenge it. Also, until recently, I would generally present as male for work. Mainly because all my qualifications, client history, business relationships, etc., all know me by my birth name. Well, male-ish anyway - still have decidedly non-male manicured nails with nail varnish, earrings, and decidedly feminine mannerisms, although a lot of people misinterpret that as camp / gay.
It all kind of worked ok whilst my professional and personal lives stayed separate, but the lines have very much blurred in recent years. And one of the issues that has come about from that is what pronouns people use for me when they know me both professionally and socially. Obviously if it's in the context of the here & now, then it's the pronoun appropriate for how I am presenting. But when referring to something in the past or future, it's a little more difficult. I think if gender-neutral pronouns were in general accepted use (rather than sounding weird and alien like they currently do) then people would just use gender-neutral pronouns in those circumstances.
It's one of the reasons I adopted "JJ" as a nickname as it is gender neutral. People can refer to me by name without having to worry about my gender presentation. And I have noticed that people do. Those who have known me by both the names that make up "JJ" tend to call me JJ these days. Not because I have asked them to, but because it is just a whole lot easier for them to do than to worry about which name is appropriate in which circumstance.
If gender-neutral pronouns were ubiquitous then I think people would similarly just use them. But they're not - they sound odd and alien right now because they are. Give it a few generations and historians will look back on us in much the same way as we chuckle about the odd English spoken in Shakespeare or Chaucer.
Vandenberg said:
…..
From what I have seen there is a big element of Look at me, I am special, I am different, please notice me, but I see that across the board with young adults trying to find their way in life.
And because nobody is allowed to tell them to stop it as it makes them sound like a dick, they carry on thinking they're right until it become law! From what I have seen there is a big element of Look at me, I am special, I am different, please notice me, but I see that across the board with young adults trying to find their way in life.
Aphex said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Wouldst thou prefer it, sirrah, if language didst not evolve? Forsooth, language doth evolve and changeth it dost.
Compelled speech is a bit different though8.4L 154 said:
Oh get over yourself, no one compels you to speak, what you say and how you say it really is your choice and included in that is the option to stay quiet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_...Clockwork Cupcake said:
The Surveyor said:
And because nobody is allowed to tell them to stop it as it makes them sound like a dick, they carry on thinking they're right until it become law!
Wouldst thou prefer it, sirrah, if language didst not evolve? Forsooth, language doth evolve and changeth it dost.Aphex said:
8.4L 154 said:
Oh get over yourself, no one compels you to speak, what you say and how you say it really is your choice and included in that is the option to stay quiet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_...your referenced wiki page said:
Criminal Code provisions dealing with hate propaganda, incitement to genocide, and aggravating factors in sentencing.
Contents
Compelled speech and anti hate crime legislation are not the same thing. Harassment is a crime and if you do that by means of speech then that is also a crime. Contents
I refer you to my previous comment, you always have the right to remain silent.
8.4L 154 said:
Compelled speech and anti hate crime legislation are not the same thing. Harassment is a crime and if you do that by means of speech then that is also a crime.
I refer you to my previous comment, you always have the right to remain silent.
Why should I remain silent because someone else is telling me what I can and can't say?I refer you to my previous comment, you always have the right to remain silent.
Aphex said:
8.4L 154 said:
Compelled speech and anti hate crime legislation are not the same thing. Harassment is a crime and if you do that by means of speech then that is also a crime.
I refer you to my previous comment, you always have the right to remain silent.
Why should I remain silent because someone else is telling me what I can and can't say?I refer you to my previous comment, you always have the right to remain silent.
If you want the right to harass without consequence, then that is another discussion
George Smiley said:
But the meaning of the word remains, which isn't the same as someone changing their gender, which isn't the same as someone changing their hair colour - gadzooks
Like chill, daddy-o. No need to be bummed(1); be gay(2)(1) - down, sad, disappointed
(2) - happy and carefree
Yup. Words never change their meanings do they. Gadzooks.
j_4m said:
The handful of transgender people I’ve met have all been using either of the standard pronouns. I think ‘zhe/xer’ seems to be one of those internet bogeymen that really isn’t common outside of vociferous bloggers.
Pronouns really aren’t a big deal, how many times do you actually use them in a face to face conversation unless talking about someone not present?
They aren't a big deal in real life, In academia, I play the game by their rules to keep my contract. Pronouns really aren’t a big deal, how many times do you actually use them in a face to face conversation unless talking about someone not present?
Aphex said:
8.4L 154 said:
Compelled speech and anti hate crime legislation are not the same thing. Harassment is a crime and if you do that by means of speech then that is also a crime.
I refer you to my previous comment, you always have the right to remain silent.
Why should I remain silent because someone else is telling me what I can and can't say?I refer you to my previous comment, you always have the right to remain silent.
George Smiley said:
Because that is how social bullying works, first hey call you thick/biggotted then if you continue they tell you that you are a troll but if you continue (and avoid being banned) they suggest you undertake your freedom to stay silent.
What a bummer. (as in, a disappointing or sad situation)
George Smiley said:
Because that is how social bullying works, first hey call you thick/biggotted then if you continue they tell you that you are a troll but if you continue (and avoid being banned) they suggest you undertake your freedom to stay silent.
What was your previous username on here?George Smiley said:
Because that is how social bullying works, first hey call you thick/biggotted then if you continue they tell you that you are a troll but if you continue (and avoid being banned) they suggest you undertake your freedom to stay silent.
f
k me, you're so desperate to paint yourself as the victim.Do you have a pressing desire to be out in the world deliberately mis-gendering whatever trans people you meet? If yes, you're a really terrible person. If no, then what's the problem exactly?
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