The Gender Non-binary debate.

[anonymous-user]

_dobbo_ said:

You missed out white. Who will fight for the downtrodden straight white man? GEORGE SMILEY and his intrepid sidekick XJAYL33T: not the heroes we want, or the heroes we need.

I didn't want to presume.
Black people can be s as well.

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Vandenberg said:

I was tapped up by a Cardiac Consultant and His hubby, and they made it quite clear what they would like to do with me. Not quite sure on there terminology but I was to be the filling of a sandwich.

Equally they were not offended by my not taking up their offer, they just commented that "it was a crying shame and I was wasted on fish"

That exchange put quite the spring in my step on the way home.

Well, quite.

I got a little drunk at BTaP one year (back in the days when we had those, and back when I presented as male) and made advances to a PHer. He very politely declined and said that he didn't bat that way. I was extremely apologetic about it, and he just said "Hey, a compliment is a compliment! It's totally fine".

He's gently teased me about it a couple of times since, but only in a very good natured way. And then it was dropped and that was that. We're still friends, and all is well.

It's not exactly rocket science to just be a decent person.

Precisely! I have on a few occasions been in gay bars with a gay friend, and been gently hit on. I took no offence, why would I?

A quick 'sorry mate, I'm straight', after all, I was in a gay bar, it wasn't unreasonable for him to assume there was a good chance I was gay.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Precisely! I have on a few occasions been in gay bars with a gay friend, and been gently hit on. I took no offence, why would I?

A quick 'sorry mate, I'm straight', after all, I was in a gay bar, it wasn't unreasonable for him to assume there was a good chance I was gay.

Exactly. And that is so very definitely not homophobic.

The only thing that would have been homophobic is if you had reacted in a homophobic way. Which you didn't.

This seems so painfully obvious to me. And yet we have had pages of debate on it!

(we as in the generic 'we' of the thread. Not you and I specifically)

[Davos123]

Aphex said:

A hate crime in Canada is also mis-gendering someone, we've already been over all of that

That is not what the law says.

[xjay1337]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Precisely! I have on a few occasions been in gay bars with a gay friend, and been gently hit on. I took no offence, why would I?

A quick 'sorry mate, I'm straight', after all, I was in a gay bar, it wasn't unreasonable for him to assume there was a good chance I was gay.

Exactly. And that is so very definitely not homophobic.

The only thing that would have been homophobic is if you had reacted in a homophobic way. Which you didn't.

This seems so painfully obvious to me. And yet we have had pages of debate on it!

(we as in the generic 'we' of the thread. Not you and I specifically)

But what could you say as a response that is homophobic?
If you say "fk OFF YOU BENDER" then that's rude / homophobic, but no normal person would say that.
Arguing about that, to the kind of person who says that is irrelevant anyway.

[_dobbo_]

xjay1337 said:

Arguing about that, to the kind of person who says that is irrelevant anyway.

You genuinely appear not to understand what homophobia or transphobia are. You clearly have a very strong opinion about what you think they are. Such as shouting "BENDER" at someone you think is gay.


Will you please follow this thought experiment?

You're single
You meet a woman on a night out
She's electric. She's blown your mind. And she's into you
You chat, it's great.
You drink, you have fun, you dance, everything is going great.
She asks you to take her home.
You agree, you can't believe it's happening
You get home, and have the most mind blowing sex you've ever had. Like seriously mind altering, life changing sex.

Then you find out she's trans.

What do you feel?

[Aphex]

Sore?

[8.4L 154]

Aphex said:

8.4L 154 said:

Aphex said:

8.4L 154 said:

That depends if your actions meet the criteria of harassment or another crime. Either way you don't have to use "x" in conversation with them, you could use their name and fundamentally the English language has developed ways to communicate where names, gender and gendered pronouns are not needed and has been in use that way as gender neutral singular language for centuries. They, them their.

So there are many ways to communicate with someone without your speech being compelled, and as i said, one of them is to not communicate, a liberty not permitted with compelled speech.

Yeah I understand that there are ways around it but I'm envisioning the worst case and you have a militant type that is out looking for trouble. Its so needless but it seems you agree that you don't have to use the preferred pronouns

You do realise the legislation you referenced aka Ca Bill C16 is related to hate crimes such as incitement to genocide.

Aphex's own link said:

provisions dealing with hate propaganda, incitement to genocide, and aggravating factors in sentencing

A hate crime in Canada is also mis-gendering someone, we've already been over all of that

Yes we have been over Ca Bill C16 and it has been pointed out that misgendering is not in of itself grounds for a hate crime. It is grounds for a hate motivated aggravation to a crime such as harassment and incurs sentencing uplift. Which is pretty much the same as the UK. Again had you read your own wiki link rather than believe the BS from JP you would know this.

JP was heard in the Canadian legislator and his arguments were found to be flawed and lacking by the people who actually wrote the law.

Aphex's link to wiki said:

The law amends the Criminal Code by adding "gender identity or expression" to the definition of "identifiable group" in section 318 of the Code.[9][10] Section 318 makes it a criminal offence to advocate or promote genocide against members of an identifiable group, which now includes gender identity or gender expression. Since the definition of "identifiable group" is also used in section 319 of the Code, the amendment also makes it a criminal offence to incite or promote hatred because of gender identity or gender expression.[11]

The law also adds "gender identity or expression" to section 718.2 of the Criminal Code.[12] This section is part of the sentencing provisions and makes gender identity and gender expression an aggravating factor in sentencing, leading to increased sentences for individuals who commit crimes motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on gender identity or expression.

Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 22 February 19:36

[Dromedary66]

_dobbo_ said:

xjay1337 said:

Arguing about that, to the kind of person who says that is irrelevant anyway.

You genuinely appear not to understand what homophobia or transphobia are. You clearly have a very strong opinion about what you think they are. Such as shouting "BENDER" at someone you think is gay.


Will you please follow this thought experiment?

You're single
You meet a woman on a night out
She's electric. She's blown your mind. And she's into you
You chat, it's great.
You drink, you have fun, you dance, everything is going great.
She asks you to take her home.
You agree, you can't believe it's happening
You get home, and have the most mind blowing sex you've ever had. Like seriously mind altering, life changing sex.

Then you find out she's trans.

What do you feel?

[xjay1337]

_dobbo_ said:

You genuinely appear not to understand what homophobia or transphobia are. You clearly have a very strong opinion about what you think they are. Such as shouting "BENDER" at someone you think is gay.


Will you please follow this thought experiment?

You're single
You meet a woman on a night out
She's electric. She's blown your mind. And she's into you
You chat, it's great.
You drink, you have fun, you dance, everything is going great.
She asks you to take her home.
You agree, you can't believe it's happening
You get home, and have the most mind blowing sex you've ever had. Like seriously mind altering, life changing sex.

Then you find out she's trans.

What do you feel?

Lied to???

So wait it's not homophobic to yell bender at someone in a derogatory way?

[Aphex]

8.4L 154 said:

Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 22 February 19:36

Did you watch it? I wouldn't trust the people he was speaking to as far as I could throw them. They didn't even understand his viewpoint.

Agree to disagree, its friday night

[8.4L 154]

Aphex said:

8.4L 154 said:

Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 22 February 19:36

Did you watch it? I wouldn't trust the people he was speaking to as far as I could throw them. They didn't even understand his viewpoint.

Agree to disagree, its friday night

Yes I did, his viewpoint was ridiculous from the start because it completely missed the point and pre-requisites of the legislation.

His claim was that a single misgendering was in of itself a hate crime. Anyone with any sense knew that's not how the legislation worked, There first has to be a crime that met an existing crime standard, the closest to his point being harassment for which the standard of evidence being far higher than a single instance of accidental misgendering .

It was a while ago now i watched the evidence session but IIRC any bewilderment on the part of the law makers was that they could not understand why the f*** they were wasting their time listening to him when he was seemingly wilfully misinterpreting and misrepresenting the proposed law

[Davos123]

The thing with JP here is, even if he’s right, it’s a fking weird hill to die on. The prior legislation already prevented lots of types of speech against groups and he’d never caused a fuss about it. Never had he campaigned to have the right use racial slurs against people, but as soon as he’s told he can’t bully a trans person by consistently and deliberately misgendering them, he decided THAT was when to get angry.

Clearly a transphobic motivation, to me.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

All these "what if" dating scenarios we've been discussing earlier are ridiculous, frankly.

The likes of PorkRind and his 100% accurate Transdar are ruled out as they would never mistake a trans woman for a "real" (sic) woman.
Likewise the "all trans women look like that pic in the Sun" brigade.

Then we have the married ones (edit: or in a steady relationship) who aren't on the dating scene anyway, so they're ruled out.

Then we have the ones that are too ugly for a trans woman to want to go near (don't flatter yourself, guys).

So, finally we are left with those who are up for it, and she's up for it, and who don't spot that the woman is trans.

Presumably of those, some will make the discovery at some point and go "Whoa. Not my thing. Sorry" and politely bow out.

So, finally, we are left with a tiny, tiny minority who go all the way, none the wiser. And then find out after.

And then, of that tiny minority, only some are going to have a problem with it whilst the rest will just shrug and say "a shag's a shag".

So, um, yeah. This sounds like a really likely scenario that everyone should be REALLY concerned about.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Friday 22 February 21:07

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

JJ, one for you. Say you were at a point that you'd had gender reassignment, you're not only identifying as a female, you have the tits and a VJ. You see a man, you fancy him, you want to pull him, and he hasn't figured that you weren't born female. Would you tell him?
I honestly believe that the very vast majority of trans ladies would declare their status before intimacy. This is based on nothing but my best guess incidentally. One of my rationals is that there would be an element of not being ashamed of who they are, and if someone has a problem accepting them as a partner (be it sex, or starting something more) then hey ho, 'not one for me'

And on a separate note, for the purpose of addressing you, do you have a preference between JJ or Joanne?

Edited by Fermit and Sexy Sarah on Friday 22 February 20:56

Edited by Fermit and Sexy Sarah on Friday 22 February 20:58

[br d]

Can of worms here (although just about everything on this thread is a potential minefield!), an anecdote has been told from a bloke having a beer in Canal Street who politely turned down a sexual suggestion from a couple of gay blokes. So far so good, I don't think anybody here with half a brain would find this shocking or troublesome.

This tale was received with smiles and nods of approval. However, the proposer of this liason when refused said "You are wasted on fish"

This is a straight out unpleasant misogynistic slur and had someone recounted a similar barb against a trans person they would have been rightly held to account for it.

Double standard?

I feel both sides here are guilty of confirmation bias. Only to be expected of course but there's a bit to much moral grandstanding and not enough elasticity from each viewpoint.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

JJ, one for you. Say you were at a point that you'd had gender reassignment, you're not only identifying as a female, you have the tits and a VJ. You see a man, you fancy him, you want to pull him, and he hasn't figured that you weren't born female. Would you tell him?
I honestly believe that the very vast majority of trans ladies would declare their status before intimacy. This is based on nothing but my best guess incidentally. One of my rationals is that there would be an element of not being ashamed of who they are, and if someone has a problem accepting them, then hey ho, 'not one for me'

That's a lot of if's. Feed too many guesses and assumptions into your equation and the results will be meaningless.

If, and it's a big if, I met someone who I was interested in getting serious with then there is a whole load of stuff I would want to learn about him, and he about me. I'd want to know if he was divorced, does he have kids, etc. As part of a developing relationship, you find out about each other. So, yeah, of course it would probably come up and be discussed. However, long before it did, I'd probably work out whether he was the kind of guy who would be cool with it of not. So it's kind of moot really.

When I came out to my friends, I had a pretty good idea who would be totally cool with it and who would not, and on the whole I was mostly right.

Edit: JJ or Joanne. Either works. Or Cuppy (a few PHers have called me that and it's kinda cute)

[George Smiley]

I'd just like to clear one very misleading fact/lie up. CC has asserted something I find very disturbing and makes me shudder to the core. I'm not married.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

George Smiley said:

I'd just like to clear one very misleading fact/lie up. CC has asserted something I find very disturbing and makes me shudder to the core. I'm not married.

Oh, I do apologise. I was sure you said you were. Or, at the very least, in a steady relationship. Which, with hindsight, I should have added to the list (so I have added an edit now)

Well, anyway. You're probably caught by one of the filters in my list so you're probably safe.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Friday 22 February 21:08

[descentia]

'

Edited by descentia on Sunday 31st March 22:18