The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
George Smiley said:
Do you feel that these boys (or do we call them girls?) should have a right to claim they menstruate or do you think they need a bit of a slap and a wakeup into reality?
You're falling into the trap that she has. The article she's 'responding' to was specifically talking about females with gender dysphoria who are menstruating, presumably because whilst they are now identifying as boys they are too young to be on HRT.Whatever your feeling on which pronouns and taxonomies we should be using in this situation, there's still a duty to educate.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
George Smiley said:
Do you feel that these boys (or do we call them girls?) should have a right to claim they menstruate or do you think they need a bit of a slap and a wakeup into reality?
Meh. I really find it hard to care either way, to be honest. The sun is shining, I just bought a nice painting, and am sitting down for a cup of tea after a pleasant drive with the sunroof open.
Aphex said:
Genius! Especially blackbot 
Stumbled upon this while listening to Daily Ted Talks
https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_quinn_the_way_we_t...
Hopefully explains why biological sex is not binary.
https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_quinn_the_way_we_t...
Hopefully explains why biological sex is not binary.
Rivenink said:
Stumbled upon this while listening to Daily Ted Talks
https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_quinn_the_way_we_t...
Hopefully explains why biological sex is not binary.
Assuming her 150m figure is correct intersex people are roughly 2% of the global population. The term 'intersex' itself as she is using it also covers several different genetic variations, stuff like Klinefelters which is a chromosomal disorder and only manifests as smaller testicles, if it affects the genitals at all. People who are genuinely non-dimorphic in biology are so rare that it is purely a genetic anomaly.https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_quinn_the_way_we_t...
Hopefully explains why biological sex is not binary.
j_4m said:
Assuming her 150m figure is correct intersex people are roughly 2% of the global population. The term 'intersex' itself as she is using it also covers several different genetic variations, stuff like Klinefelters which is a chromosomal disorder and only manifests as smaller testicles, if it affects the genitals at all. People who are genuinely non-dimorphic in biology are so rare that it is purely a genetic anomaly.
1. Please define what you think is "genuinely non-dimorphic in biology". 2. Please supply numbers on that assertion
3. What do you think of the other factors that influence biological sex that she mentions?
Rivenink said:
1. Please define what you think is "genuinely non-dimorphic in biology".
2. Please supply numbers on that assertion
3. What do you think of the other factors that influence biological sex that she mentions?
People who have both sets of sexual biology and not just those who are physically a determinate sex but have atypical chromosomes or disorders like germline mosaicism. The numbers of people who have ovotestes, or who are genuine hermaphrodites are tiny, fractions of a percent. I'll make it clear at this point that I don't think these people have anything wrong with them, and it's purely their choice whether they choose to self-assign a suitable sex or decide to live as intersex, but their occurrence is at such a low rate that they can't be held up as an example that human biology is non-dimorphic.2. Please supply numbers on that assertion
3. What do you think of the other factors that influence biological sex that she mentions?
j_4m said:
People who have both sets of sexual biology and not just those who are physically a determinate sex but have atypical chromosomes or disorders like germline mosaicism. The numbers of people who have ovotestes, or who are genuine hermaphrodites are tiny, fractions of a percent. I'll make it clear at this point that I don't think these people have anything wrong with them, and it's purely their choice whether they choose to self-assign a suitable sex or decide to live as intersex, but their occurrence is at such a low rate that they can't be held up as an example that human biology is non-dimorphic.
Isn't this the 'true scotsman' defense?'No Scotsman would drink Irish Whiskey'
'I am a Scotsman and I do'
'Well no TRUE Scotsman would drink Irish Whiskey'
It is an example of non-dimorphic human biology. You can say it is rare (though persistent), but it is a valid example none the less.
gregs656 said:
Isn't this the 'true scotsman' defense?
'No Scotsman would drink Irish Whiskey'
'I am a Scotsman and I do'
'Well no TRUE Scotsman would drink Irish Whiskey'
It is an example of non-dimorphic human biology. You can say it is rare (though persistent), but it is a valid example none the less.
Not at all. It IS an example, but one that is so divergent that you can't use it as justification that the whole of human biology is non-dimorphic.'No Scotsman would drink Irish Whiskey'
'I am a Scotsman and I do'
'Well no TRUE Scotsman would drink Irish Whiskey'
It is an example of non-dimorphic human biology. You can say it is rare (though persistent), but it is a valid example none the less.
desolate said:
Milnero said:
Discussing the cure for cancer within this thread is going off topic don't you think?
Given the quality of your intellectual contribution to the thread so far I think it's a risk worth taking. I thought the whole argument coming from people who are Non-binary was they don't identify as a male or female and that they can identify as what ever they like, such as a white male who on a Tuesday afternoon identifies as a black women or at the weekend identifying as a toaster.
Milnero said:
you haven't grasped the Non-binary movement if you feel my comment to be unintelligent, it was a sarcastic comment but in keeping with the topic.
I thought the whole argument coming from people who are Non-binary was they don't identify as a male or female and that they can identify as what ever they like, such as a white male who on a Tuesday afternoon identifies as a black women or at the weekend identifying as a toaster.
Oh the irony I thought the whole argument coming from people who are Non-binary was they don't identify as a male or female and that they can identify as what ever they like, such as a white male who on a Tuesday afternoon identifies as a black women or at the weekend identifying as a toaster.
I think what you are trying to describe there is gender fluidity. The concept that people may feel more less one gender one day than the other. It is a concept that would apply to more people than you think if you stick along the lines of the strict and constructed gender roles some people like to push.
The connections to other races or inanimate objects are kinda redundant given that most people don't turn out to be born toasters, attack helicopters or cats.
Race (thankfully) shouldn't/doesn't have much of an impact as to how people live their lives and have people interact with them in day to day living, and hence don't usually cause as much distress to someone perhaps living as the wrong gender for their mind, how they would like to be perceived and treated.
Example, me: Being born white would have maybe made life a little bit nicer or easier, but I'm not stocking up on skin bleach because race doesn't really matter to me and how I am perceived and treated by people on a daily basis. When it comes to wanting to have been born female? Oh boy, where do I begin?
The non binary is the concept of falling somewhere between often touted Male or Female. Again, a concept that would apply to more people than you'd think if you're using those strict gender concepts - Almost no man is going to be the strictest ideal of masculinity all the time, every time. Than thing with women and femininity.
Some people may find their identities are closer to the ideals away from what they were assigned and take steps to align that identity with their lives (clothes, hobbies, mannerisms, etc) and sometimes bodies to the point where they start become 'noticeably' trans, but may occupy a space where they are not clearly binary one way or the other.
From my PERSONAL experience, I have found the idea of being non binary an increasing interesting and compelling concept since I realized that at the very least I am not gender conforming and begun transition. Practically? Nothing has changed, and my life/transition/whatever is continuing as I had planned since I came to my personal revaluation, because despite where exactly on the spectrum I am, I am and always have been WAY more female than male, and want to present and feel that. But internally? It allows me to deal with some of the pressure and self directed transphobia that has been built up over the years at the idea of being binary but simply saying "Well, f
k your rules. I'll live how I want. I'll dress how I want to dress and like what I want to like. I'm not hurting anyone" and not overly stressing about gendered concepts and the expectations surrounding them. Its worth mentioning that being seen as 100% binary one way or the other is still an extremely important concept for many, many trans people. I'm just sharing some of my thoughts, since the 'non binary debate' is something that has been on my mind for a while... And certainly not this thread
.Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 5th March 18:35
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