The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
WorldBoss said:
Milnero said:
you haven't grasped the Non-binary movement if you feel my comment to be unintelligent, it was a sarcastic comment but in keeping with the topic.
I thought the whole argument coming from people who are Non-binary was they don't identify as a male or female and that they can identify as what ever they like, such as a white male who on a Tuesday afternoon identifies as a black women or at the weekend identifying as a toaster.
Oh the irony I thought the whole argument coming from people who are Non-binary was they don't identify as a male or female and that they can identify as what ever they like, such as a white male who on a Tuesday afternoon identifies as a black women or at the weekend identifying as a toaster.
I think what you are trying to describe there is gender fluidity. The concept that people may feel more less one gender one day than the other. It is a concept that would apply to more people than you think if you stick along the lines of the strict and constructed gender roles some people like to push.
The connections to other races or inanimate objects are kinda redundant given that most people don't turn out to be born toasters, attack helicopters or cats.
Race (thankfully) shouldn't/doesn't have much of an impact as to how people live their lives and have people interact with them in day to day living, and hence don't usually cause as much distress to someone perhaps living as the wrong gender for their mind, how they would like to be perceived and treated.
Example, me: Being born white would have maybe made life a little bit nicer or easier, but I'm not stocking up on skin bleach because race doesn't really matter to me and how I am perceived and treated by people on a daily basis. When it comes to wanting to have been born female? Oh boy, where do I begin?
The non binary is the concept of falling somewhere between often touted Male or Female. Again, a concept that would apply to more people than you'd think if you're using those strict gender concepts - Almost no man is going to be the strictest ideal of masculinity all the time, every time. Than thing with women and femininity.
Some people may find their identities are closer to the ideals away from what they were assigned and take steps to align that identity with their lives (clothes, hobbies, mannerisms, etc) and sometimes bodies to the point where they start become 'noticeably' trans, but may occupy a space where they are not clearly binary one way or the other.
From my PERSONAL experience, I have found the idea of being non binary an increasing interesting and compelling concept since I realized that at the very least I am not gender conforming and begun transition. Practically? Nothing has changed, and my life/transition/whatever is continuing as I had planned since I came to my personal revaluation, because despite where exactly on the spectrum I am, I am and always have been WAY more female than male, and want to present and feel that. But internally? It allows me to deal with some of the pressure and self directed transphobia that has been built up over the years at the idea of being binary but simply saying "Well, f
k your rules. I'll live how I want. I'll dress how I want to dress and like what I want to like. I'm not hurting anyone" and not overly stressing about gendered concepts and the expectations surrounding them. Its worth mentioning that being seen as 100% binary one way or the other is still an extremely important concept for many, many trans people. I'm just sharing some of my thoughts, since the 'non binary debate' is something that has been on my mind for a while... And certainly not this thread
.Edited by WorldBoss on Tuesday 5th March 18:35
WorldBoss said:
Oh the irony
I think what you are trying to describe there is gender fluidity. The concept that people may feel more less one gender one day than the other. It is a concept that would apply to more people than you think if you stick along the lines of the strict and constructed gender roles some people like to push.
The connections to other races or inanimate objects are kinda redundant given that most people don't turn out to be born toasters, attack helicopters or cats.
Race (thankfully) shouldn't/doesn't have much of an impact as to how people live their lives and have people interact with them in day to day living, and hence don't usually cause as much distress to someone perhaps living as the wrong gender for their mind, how they would like to be perceived and treated.
Example, me: Being born white would have maybe made life a little bit nicer or easier, but I'm not stocking up on skin bleach because race doesn't really matter to me and how I am perceived and treated by people on a daily basis. When it comes to wanting to have been born female? Oh boy, where do I begin?
The non binary is the concept of falling somewhere between often touted Male or Female. Again, a concept that would apply to more people than you'd think if you're using those strict gender concepts - Almost no man is going to be the strictest ideal of masculinity all the time, every time. Than thing with women and femininity.
Some people may find their identities are closer to the ideals away from what they were assigned and take steps to align that identity with their lives (clothes, hobbies, mannerisms, etc) and sometimes bodies to the point where they start become 'noticeably' trans, but may occupy a space where they are not clearly binary one way or the other.
From my PERSONAL experience, I have found the idea of being non binary an increasing interesting and compelling concept since I realized that at the very least I am not gender conforming and begun transition. Practically? Nothing has changed, and my life/transition/whatever is continuing as I had planned since I came to my personal revaluation, because despite where exactly on the spectrum I am, I am and always have been WAY more female than male, and want to present and feel that. But internally? It allows me to deal with some of the pressure and self directed transphobia that has been built up over the years at the idea of being binary but simply saying "Well, fk your rules. I'll live how I want. I'll dress how I want to dress and like what I want to like. I'm not hurting anyone" and not overly stressing about gendered concepts and the expectations surrounding them.
Its worth mentioning that being seen as 100% binary one way or the other is still an extremely important concept for many, many trans people. I'm just sharing some of my thoughts, since the 'non binary debate' is something that has been on my mind for a while... And certainly not this thread.
Playing devils advocate here. I think what you are trying to describe there is gender fluidity. The concept that people may feel more less one gender one day than the other. It is a concept that would apply to more people than you think if you stick along the lines of the strict and constructed gender roles some people like to push.
The connections to other races or inanimate objects are kinda redundant given that most people don't turn out to be born toasters, attack helicopters or cats.
Race (thankfully) shouldn't/doesn't have much of an impact as to how people live their lives and have people interact with them in day to day living, and hence don't usually cause as much distress to someone perhaps living as the wrong gender for their mind, how they would like to be perceived and treated.
Example, me: Being born white would have maybe made life a little bit nicer or easier, but I'm not stocking up on skin bleach because race doesn't really matter to me and how I am perceived and treated by people on a daily basis. When it comes to wanting to have been born female? Oh boy, where do I begin?
The non binary is the concept of falling somewhere between often touted Male or Female. Again, a concept that would apply to more people than you'd think if you're using those strict gender concepts - Almost no man is going to be the strictest ideal of masculinity all the time, every time. Than thing with women and femininity.
Some people may find their identities are closer to the ideals away from what they were assigned and take steps to align that identity with their lives (clothes, hobbies, mannerisms, etc) and sometimes bodies to the point where they start become 'noticeably' trans, but may occupy a space where they are not clearly binary one way or the other.
From my PERSONAL experience, I have found the idea of being non binary an increasing interesting and compelling concept since I realized that at the very least I am not gender conforming and begun transition. Practically? Nothing has changed, and my life/transition/whatever is continuing as I had planned since I came to my personal revaluation, because despite where exactly on the spectrum I am, I am and always have been WAY more female than male, and want to present and feel that. But internally? It allows me to deal with some of the pressure and self directed transphobia that has been built up over the years at the idea of being binary but simply saying "Well, f
k your rules. I'll live how I want. I'll dress how I want to dress and like what I want to like. I'm not hurting anyone" and not overly stressing about gendered concepts and the expectations surrounding them. Its worth mentioning that being seen as 100% binary one way or the other is still an extremely important concept for many, many trans people. I'm just sharing some of my thoughts, since the 'non binary debate' is something that has been on my mind for a while... And certainly not this thread
.Edited by WorldBoss on Tuesday 5th March 18:35
I think you have missed his point which seems very valid. while its stretching away from genders some people do identify as things other than humans. "this is a tiny minority" maybe it is but I feel the whole argument from the non binary community is everyone is entitled to their own way of being. But when do we stop calling it a choice and when do we start calling it a disorder which I think we can all agree humans shouldn't be able to identify as other species. If we allow a complete "be who you wanna be" policy its opening a door to encouraging and pushing incredibly strange behaviour which could lead to no end of problems politically and socially
Michaelbailey said:
Playing devils advocate here.
I think you have missed his point which seems very valid. while its stretching away from genders some people do identify as things other than humans. "this is a tiny minority" maybe it is but I feel the whole argument from the non binary community is everyone is entitled to their own way of being. But when do we stop calling it a choice and when do we start calling it a disorder which I think we can all agree humans shouldn't be able to identify as other species. If we allow a complete "be who you wanna be" policy its opening a door to encouraging and pushing incredibly strange behaviour which could lead to no end of problems politically and socially
Go away with your valid points. I think you have missed his point which seems very valid. while its stretching away from genders some people do identify as things other than humans. "this is a tiny minority" maybe it is but I feel the whole argument from the non binary community is everyone is entitled to their own way of being. But when do we stop calling it a choice and when do we start calling it a disorder which I think we can all agree humans shouldn't be able to identify as other species. If we allow a complete "be who you wanna be" policy its opening a door to encouraging and pushing incredibly strange behaviour which could lead to no end of problems politically and socially
j_4m said:
xjay1337 said:
Go away with your valid points.
It's not a valid point, it's a strawman. It is entirely feasible one kind of human would wish to be another kind of human, the only thing really separating us being a chromosome or two and a few thousand different genes. It's also a mental disorder to want to be something you're not.
Bearing in mind that a chromosome or two is a key thing, in the same way that we are 88% alike to rodents if you look at our DNA.
xjay1337 said:
It is feasible to wish that.
It's also a mental disorder to want to be something you're not.
Bearing in mind that a chromosome or two is a key thing, in the same way that we are 88% alike to rodents if you look at our DNA.
Cross comparison of genetic material in different animals is pointless. Goldfish have 50 pairs of chromosomes to our 23, does this make them twice as complex an organism?It's also a mental disorder to want to be something you're not.
Bearing in mind that a chromosome or two is a key thing, in the same way that we are 88% alike to rodents if you look at our DNA.
It's a mental disorder to want to be a fish, or a table, or a piece of military hardware. Not so much to be different kind of human.
xjay1337 said:
j_4m said:
xjay1337 said:
Go away with your valid points.
It's not a valid point, it's a strawman. It is entirely feasible one kind of human would wish to be another kind of human, the only thing really separating us being a chromosome or two and a few thousand different genes. It's also a mental disorder to want to be something you're not.
Bearing in mind that a chromosome or two is a key thing, in the same way that we are 88% alike to rodents if you look at our DNA.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
NoVetec said:
The mental side of it is gender dysphoria. A person can have that with or without being trans.
And, equally, you can be trans without having gender dysphoria.8.4L 154 said:
You can most definitely be trans without gender dysphoria. Many transitioned trans people meet that definition. I not sure you can have Gender Dysphoria and not be trans though.
Being a man and not feeling like you're physically masculine enough? I feel that would just come under generic insecurity though.8.4L 154 said:
You can most definitely be trans without gender dysphoria. Many transitioned trans people meet that definition. I not sure you can have Gender Dysphoria and not be trans though.
IMO you can, but across the board only a very small number of people experience dysphoria without being trans. It's a tad contentious and one has to be careful with how to approach this. I realise some types will use views like this with a nefarious agenda of shutting down the debate amongst other less savoury views.8.4L 154 said:
You can most definitely be trans without gender dysphoria. Many transitioned trans people meet that definition. I not sure you can have Gender Dysphoria and not be trans though.
You definitely can. It is not that uncommon for children to experience Gender Dysphoria until they hit puberty where it desists.
I heard a new term yesterday, a trans-gender couple are having a "theyby", because, well, I don't actually know why. The term baby is already non-gender specific.
I don't actually get the point, other than to try and make a point.
Does this seem as crazy to our trans posters as it seems to be to me? If not, what am I missing?
I don't actually get the point, other than to try and make a point.
Does this seem as crazy to our trans posters as it seems to be to me? If not, what am I missing?
AshVX220 said:
I heard a new term yesterday, a trans-gender couple are having a "theyby", because, well, I don't actually know why. The term baby is already non-gender specific.
I don't actually get the point, other than to try and make a point.
Does this seem as crazy to our trans posters as it seems to be to me? If not, what am I missing?
Minorities need labels so that they can differentiate themselves from the majority and then complain that the majority appears to victimise them with the incorrect use of labels.I don't actually get the point, other than to try and make a point.
Does this seem as crazy to our trans posters as it seems to be to me? If not, what am I missing?
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