The Gender Non-binary debate.

[Davos123]

Buggles said:

In your opinion.

If you present as a woman, and you know that your potential partner believes you are a woman

They are a woman

Buggles said:

you don't think it might be decent to let them know that you were biologically a man at one point?

For a long-term relationship? Definitely - needs bringing up at some point. For a one-night stand? Who cares? If the other party is attracted to them, seen everything and willingly gone for it the fact that they'd be disgusted to know is ON THEM. That's their hang up, their prejudice,e, their bias. Of course the woman may not want to sleep with someone who has those views and therefore bring it up, but that's totally up to them.

Buggles said:

because sleeping with a trans woman, is different to sleeping with a woman.

A difference would be noticeable. If you need telling then it's the same.

Buggles said:

Do you genuinely believe you can absolve yourself of all responsibility, and put the onus on them when you're portraying yourself to be a woman?

They are women

[Driller]

Davos123 said:

Buggles said:

you don't think it might be decent to let them know that you were biologically a man at one point?

For a long-term relationship? Definitely - needs bringing up at some point. For a one-night stand? Who cares?

Sorry to jump in but I can't ignore that. Believe me there are plenty of people who would care. Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean nobody else would.

That's very presumptuous on your part.

I also imagine there would be plenty of women who are attracted to other women who would care if the person they were in bed with was actually biologically a man.

[Davos123]

Driller said:

Sorry to jump in but I can't ignore that. Believe me there are plenty of people who would care. Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean nobody else would.

That's very presumptuous on your part.

I also imagine there would be plenty of women who are attracted to other women who would care if the person they were in bed with was actually biologically a man.

You're misunderstanding - I know there are people who care, I'm saying that the other party needn't. They care because of their own prejudices and bias, that's on them, not the woman.

If both parties are an enthusiastic and willing participant in the sex that's all there is to it, no need to disclose anything.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Driller said:

Sorry to jump in but I can't ignore that. Believe me there are plenty of people who would care. Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean nobody else would.

That's very presumptuous on your part.

I also imagine there would be plenty of women who are attracted to other women who would care if the person they were in bed with was actually biologically a man.

People going after one night stands aren't exactly picky though are they. A shag's a shag if all you are looking for is a shag.

Not that I'd know - it's never been something that has ever appealed to me despite numerous opportunities and offers.

[Driller]

Davos123 said:

Driller said:

Sorry to jump in but I can't ignore that. Believe me there are plenty of people who would care. Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean nobody else would.

That's very presumptuous on your part.

I also imagine there would be plenty of women who are attracted to other women who would care if the person they were in bed with was actually biologically a man.

You're misunderstanding - I know there are people who care, I'm saying that the other party needn't. They care because of their own prejudices and bias, that's on them, not the woman.

If both parties are an enthusiastic and willing participant in the sex that's all there is to it, no need to disclose anything.

In your opinion! It doesn't matter if both parties are "willing to participate". That is extremely important information and even if you don't consider it so yourself, I can't believe that you couldn't appreciate that for some it would matter.

Just because you think it isn't important doesn't mean you speak for the rest of us.

We're all different and some of us have things that would bother us that might not bother other people. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the right to know.

I find this attitude extremely shocking and quite bizarre even.

Clockwork Cupcake said:

People going after one night stands aren't exactly picky though are they. A shag's a shag if all you are looking for is a shag.

Not that I'd know - it's never been something that has ever appealed to me despite numerous opportunities and offers.

Again, you're trying to speak for everyone else-you can't do that!

[Davos123]

Driller said:

In your opinion! It doesn't matter if both parties are "willing to participate". That is extremely important information and even if you don't consider it so yourself, I can't believe that you couldn't appreciate that for some it would matter.

I appreciate that it might matter to them, I just don't care. A trans woman may have many reasons for not wanting to disclose, those are far more important than you feeling icky about sleeping with someone who used to have a penis. They face the threat of abuse, violence and murder - apologies for giving more of a st about how they might feel than you.

Driller said:

Just because you think it isn't important doesn't mean you speak for the rest of us.

I'm not pretending to speak for you, but if it's so important to you that consensual, enjoyable sex will have been so ruined by the revelation that you feel disgusted, cheated and lied to then that is YOUR prejudice driving that and I don't care about it. It's no different to me than if they revealed they were a certain religion and you reacted similarly. That st's on you, brother.

Driller said:

We're all different and some of us have things that would bother us that might not bother other people. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the right to know.

Why is your right to know more important than the right of a trans woman to protect herself from potential violence, or even just to feel slightly safer and more comfortable? It's an extremely selfish attitude to firstly have such an issue with accidentally sleeping with a trans person in the first place and then having that bias, to decide it's not on you to find out is a potential sexual partner isn't a trans person but for them to 'reveal' it to you.

[Driller]

Davos123 said:

Driller said:

In your opinion! It doesn't matter if both parties are "willing to participate". That is extremely important information and even if you don't consider it so yourself, I can't believe that you couldn't appreciate that for some it would matter.

I appreciate that it might matter to them, I just don't care. A trans woman may have many reasons for not wanting to disclose, those are far more important than you feeling icky about sleeping with someone who used to have a penis. They face the threat of abuse, violence and murder - apologies for giving more of a st about how they might feel than you.

Driller said:

Just because you think it isn't important doesn't mean you speak for the rest of us.

I'm not pretending to speak for you, but if it's so important to you that consensual, enjoyable sex will have been so ruined by the revelation that you feel disgusted, cheated and lied to then that is YOUR prejudice driving that and I don't care about it. It's no different to me than if they revealed they were a certain religion and you reacted similarly. That st's on you, brother.

Driller said:

We're all different and some of us have things that would bother us that might not bother other people. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the right to know.

Why is your right to know more important than the right of a trans woman to protect herself from potential violence, or even just to feel slightly safer and more comfortable? It's an extremely selfish attitude to firstly have such an issue with accidentally sleeping with a trans person in the first place and then having that bias, to decide it's not on you to find out is a potential sexual partner isn't a trans person but for them to 'reveal' it to you.

I am truly lost for words.

I would suggest that if the driving force behind not admitting to their biological state is the "fear of violence" then rather than allowing another party to be misled which in itself for some would be a kind of violence, they should not take part in this kind of situation unless in a completely secure and mutually informed situation.

Nobody forced them to change themselves physically and that doesn't give them the right impose this on an unsuspecting other party without informing them about it.

Again I am truly shocked by this attitude and I would be very surprised if these ideas were not shared by only a very few others.

[Androgynous]

Davos123 said:

Driller said:

In your opinion! It doesn't matter if both parties are "willing to participate". That is extremely important information and even if you don't consider it so yourself, I can't believe that you couldn't appreciate that for some it would matter.

I appreciate that it might matter to them, I just don't care. A trans woman may have many reasons for not wanting to disclose, those are far more important than you feeling icky about sleeping with someone who used to have a penis. They face the threat of abuse, violence and murder - apologies for giving more of a st about how they might feel than you.

Driller said:

Just because you think it isn't important doesn't mean you speak for the rest of us.

I'm not pretending to speak for you, but if it's so important to you that consensual, enjoyable sex will have been so ruined by the revelation that you feel disgusted, cheated and lied to then that is YOUR prejudice driving that and I don't care about it. It's no different to me than if they revealed they were a certain religion and you reacted similarly. That st's on you, brother.

Driller said:

We're all different and some of us have things that would bother us that might not bother other people. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the right to know.

Why is your right to know more important than the right of a trans woman to protect herself from potential violence, or even just to feel slightly safer and more comfortable? It's an extremely selfish attitude to firstly have such an issue with accidentally sleeping with a trans person in the first place and then having that bias, to decide it's not on you to find out is a potential sexual partner isn't a trans person but for them to 'reveal' it to you.

You would only face violence if you concealed that you were once a man. You have already shown that you understand it might happen, so why would you do it?

Honesty is the right thing in this situation, otherwise your selfishness will fuel prejudice against you.

[Androgynous]

Davos123 said:

Driller said:

Sorry to jump in but I can't ignore that. Believe me there are plenty of people who would care. Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean nobody else would.

That's very presumptuous on your part.

I also imagine there would be plenty of women who are attracted to other women who would care if the person they were in bed with was actually biologically a man.

You're misunderstanding - I know there are people who care, I'm saying that the other party needn't. They care because of their own prejudices and bias, that's on them, not the woman.

If both parties are an enthusiastic and willing participant in the sex that's all there is to it, no need to disclose anything.

Being straight isn't a prejudice, it's the norm. You have a responsibility to be open about who you are if you want to date.

[Davos123]

Buggles said:

So the crux of the argument is, fk everyone else. As long as trans woman are ok.

Right...

Doesn't really help the cause does it.

In the specific circumstance described, yes I think a trans person's right to discuss their past in the manner in which they feel most comfortable is more important than protecting the fragile masculinity of someone who's so disgusted at the idea that it ruins the consensual, enjoyable sex they've had.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Emotive language aside, I think it's fair to say that if someone has a problem with something then it's them that has the problem.

[Davos123]

Androgynous said:

Being straight isn't a prejudice, it's the norm. You have a responsibility to be open about who you are if you want to date.

This has nothing to do with being straight. A straight person has had sex with a woman to whom they're attracted, it has nothing to do with physical attraction and everything to do with bias and prejudice.

edit: the majority of young people don't identify as straight - maybe it's not the norm, maybe people haven't felt comfortable exploring their sexuality because of bias and prejudice in society? I think we're some way off knowing if "straightness" is the dominant sexuality, tbh: https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/vb4dvb/yout...

Edited by Davos123 on Sunday 17th March 14:31

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Androgynous said:

You have a responsibility to be open about who you are if you want to date.

Exactly! So therefore anyone who has a problem with trans women has a responsibility to declare it just as much as the trans woman does to declare she is trans. If one person has to declare something that the other person might find objectionable, then both do.

Although, as others have observed, that's probably not going to go down very well.

To understand the asymmetry in that is to understand the debate.

[Davos123]

Exactly. I have no interest in dating a transphobe, a racist or a homophobe. I don't expect them to have to declare it before I sleep with them though, it's on me to establish it. if it's that big a deal to me.

[Androgynous]

Davos123 said:

Buggles said:

So the crux of the argument is, fk everyone else. As long as trans woman are ok.

Right...

Doesn't really help the cause does it.

In the specific circumstance described, yes I think a trans person's right to discuss their past in the manner in which they feel most comfortable is more important than protecting the fragile masculinity of someone who's so disgusted at the idea that it ruins the consensual, enjoyable sex they've had.

I can completely understand why you're afraid of getting a good kicking if that's your attitude. You are taking no responsibility for your own safety whatsoever.

Don't dupe people and you'll be fine. From reading what you've posted here I guess you've gone through life blaming everyone else.

[Davos123]

Buggles said:

Not if they believed you were something you're not. That's the crux of the argument.

You're not giving someone the whole picture for them to give informed consent.

Eurgh, men.

You've got the whole picture, a woman in front of you who you're attracted to. You see her naked, like what you see, have sex with her and enjoy it.

Nobody should care if your ickle wickle feelings get hurt because you find out what her body looked like in the past. That's on you, work through it.

[Davos123]

Androgynous said:

I can completely understand why you're afraid of getting a good kicking if that's your attitude. You are taking no responsibility for your own safety whatsoever.

Don't dupe people and you'll be fine. From reading what you've posted here I guess you've gone through life blaming everyone else.

I'm a cis male. I'm just saying I think it's her right to decide when to disclose, not yours to demand it - it's what any civil, empathetic person would do.

[8.4L 154]

Buggles said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Emotive language aside, I think it's fair to say that if someone has a problem with something then it's them that has the problem.

Not if they believed you were something you're not. That's the crux of the argument.

You're not giving someone the whole picture for them to give informed consent.

What if they believe who they slept with is white, but their grandfather is Asian?

People keep claiming its different but never give justification why racism is bad and transphobia ok.

[Androgynous]

Davos123 said:

Androgynous said:

I can completely understand why you're afraid of getting a good kicking if that's your attitude. You are taking no responsibility for your own safety whatsoever.

Don't dupe people and you'll be fine. From reading what you've posted here I guess you've gone through life blaming everyone else.

I'm a cis male. I'm just saying I think it's her right to decide when to disclose, not yours to demand it - it's what any civil, empathetic person would do.

It's not a demand, it's sensible advice if you don't want to get a good kicking. You were the one who pointed out that there is a risk of violence if you deceive someone, so why would you do it?

[Davos123]

Androgynous said:

It's not a demand, it's sensible advice if you don't want to get a good kicking. You were the one who pointed out that there is a risk of violence if you deceive someone, so why would you do it?

'm not arguing that anyone should, just that it is absolutely their inalienable right to. How they decide to discuss their medical history is their business.
I