The Gender Non-binary debate.

[The Surveyor]

skwdenyer said:

It is possible I'm not explaining myself; …...

That's an excellent post.

[gregs656]

skwdenyer said:

[

Public perceptions of mental health, homosexuality, and various other issues have had to travel a similar path. I'm not sure that such shifts have ever happened so quickly.

Roberta Cowell is the first person in Britain to have sex reassignment surgery and birth certificate legally changed.

In 1951.

[skwdenyer]

gregs656 said:

skwdenyer said:

[

Public perceptions of mental health, homosexuality, and various other issues have had to travel a similar path. I'm not sure that such shifts have ever happened so quickly.

Roberta Cowell is the first person in Britain to have sex reassignment surgery and birth certificate legally changed.

In 1951.

That sounds about right; most shifts in society take 1-3 generations. It took rather longer for homosexuality to be embraced. It is also worth noting that the surgery was illegal at the time. You might also want to read up on her views on those who followed her - she wasn't very tolerant of those whose gender was rooted in their mind and not their chromosomes.

[8.4L 154]

gregs656 said:

skwdenyer said:

[

Public perceptions of mental health, homosexuality, and various other issues have had to travel a similar path. I'm not sure that such shifts have ever happened so quickly.

Roberta Cowell is the first person in Britain to have sex reassignment surgery and birth certificate legally changed.

In 1951.

Mustn't rush things she might change her mind.


As for the wait lists they posted. (cant be bothered to quote skwdenyer) Why do people make up st that can be googled in seconds.

gids website said:

We are seeing young people for their first appointment who were referred around 20 months ago (approximately June 2017, correct as of February 2019). Due to the fact that wait times change over time, we aim to update waiting times on a quarterly basis.

The Laurels said:

Our current waiting time from receiving your referral to your first appointment is approximately 29 months. You can expect to begin treatment from around a further 30 months following your first appointment. However, each person will have different needs.

NB that first appointment is not actually with a specialist, hence the additional 30 month wait.

So its actually at least 2 months longer for GIDS than the shortest I said at 18mo and now nearly 5 years for adult services in the South west, both waits have extended since earlier this year which is what I based my post on.

[gregs656]

skwdenyer said:

That sounds about right; most shifts in society take 1-3 generations. It took rather longer for homosexuality to be embraced. It is also worth noting that the surgery was illegal at the time. You might also want to read up on her views on those who followed her - she wasn't very tolerant of those whose gender was rooted in their mind and not their chromosomes.

I don't think that is true, at all. In any case my count there has been 4 generations since 1951. Some things take significantly less time, many medical conditions - many which children are routinely treated for - were not defined until fairly recently but are widely accepted as existing.

You would also expect, I think, that in a more enlightened time acceptance of these things would be accelerated.

I don't see, particularly, how you are making this a conversation about medical marijuana but the domino effect we can see happening with that in the states and Canada - and indeed you would like to see it speeding up in the UK - I believe the legislation has already softened.

She didn't have access to the information we do now, perhaps her opinion would be different.

The reason I mentioned her is that it sounds like you are stepping into a conversation that has been going on for 70 years and saying 'we should really talk about this'

[George Smiley]

8.4L 154 said:

NB that first appointment is not actually with a specialist, hence the additional 30 month wait.

So its actually at least 2 months longer for GIDS than the shortest I said at 18mo and now nearly 5 years for adult services in the South west, both waits have extended since earlier this year which is what I based my post on.

[skwdenyer]

8.4L 154 said:

As for the wait lists they posted. (cant be bothered to quote skwdenyer) Why do people make up st that can be googled in seconds.

Indeed. I did https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42774750 quotes Tavistock under 18s at approx 50 weeks.

I also now see the GIDS statement; the 2017 figure they quote doesn't match the figure they gave the BBC in January 2018 But hey ho, happy to be corrected.

I think we can all agree that "austerity" hasn't been a good thing for the NHS.

[skwdenyer]

gregs656 said:

Some things take significantly less time, many medical conditions - many which children are routinely treated for - were not defined until fairly recently but are widely accepted as existing.

I think we can agree that stigma around mental health is still very prevalent, has not died out, and is not at all classed as a "hate crime" when it is met with intolerance. Things are getting better. The fact that we've added to the cannon of defined mental health conditions is a red herring.

gregs656 said:

I don't see, particularly, how you are making this a conversation about medical marijuana but the domino effect we can see happening with that in the states and Canada - and indeed you would like to see it speeding up in the UK - I believe the legislation has already softened.

I didn't. I introduced an analogue in the conversation about capacity and consent. Children are allowed to consent to life-changing therapy, but adults aren't allowed to make similar / less serious decisions. The custom and practice is inconsistent, that's all.

In the USA, whilst attitude to cannabis are changing, it is hard if not impossible to get an abortion sometimes. Enlightened times indeed

gregs656 said:

She didn't have access to the information we do now, perhaps her opinion would be different.

It might.

gregs656 said:

The reason I mentioned her is that it sounds like you are stepping into a conversation that has been going on for 70 years and saying 'we should really talk about this'

<takes deep breath> I did not say "we should really talk about this"

I noticed the head-in-sand image posted above. This seems to be the approach taken by many around public engagement. Let's not carry people with us; instead let's allow pressure groups to incite the passing of poorly-thought-through "hate crime" legislation and just criminalise people. That will fix society...

Let's take another example of intolerance: racism.

In my youth, it was clear that racist attitudes were softening rapidly. At the same time, we were surrounded by debate and messaging around educating the public, carrying them forward in attitudinal shifts. It does take generations sometimes, as children do tend to inherit attitudes from their parents, and it requires concerted efforts.

Nowadays, the messaging has stopped. It has been replaced with hate crime legislation, policing, prosecutions. No more messaging, no more education, no more attempts to carry the public. Yet there are plenty of people who are still racist, and it seems like the number might be growing and attitudes hardening.

I don't believe I care if the conversation has been going on for 70 years; what is very clear is that the conversation has not yielded a positive result, one that the whole (or a substantial majority of the) country can get behind. It is readily apparent that many people think children are too young to transition, and just saying "because it is" is an awfully counter-productive way to change attitudes!

If anything I'd say that this thread points up many of the very real problems - a persistent patriarchal society in which people who "know better" seem in some cases to believe that just because they are "right" everyone else will fall into line (and for good measure that we should prosecute those who don't). History suggests this isn't the best approach to solving any sort of societal ill, and that a great many problems of modern day Britain can be laid at the door of just such an approach.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

skwdenyer said:

I think we can all agree that "austerity" hasn't been a good thing for the NHS.

Indeed.

I had an eye test in January, and the retinal photography discovered a mole on my retina, which concerned them enough to send a letter to my GP, who then arranged an appointment at the Ophthalmology department of my local hospital.

I was seen (no pun intended) last week.

As it turned out, the Consultant who examined me said it was fine and he wasn't concerned. Which was somewhat of a relief.

[gregs656]

skwdenyer said:

I didn't. I introduced an analogue in the conversation about capacity and consent. Children are allowed to consent to life-changing therapy, but adults aren't allowed to make similar / less serious decisions. The custom and practice is inconsistent, that's all.

It is not an analogue; one set of treatments has been approved and the other hasn't (yet).

I also do not recognise how you characterise how race is treated in the UK, particularly the inference that legislation has replaced education.

The Race Relations Act was 1965.

Legislation and Education have always been the way things have got done.

[skwdenyer]

gregs656 said:

skwdenyer said:

I didn't. I introduced an analogue in the conversation about capacity and consent. Children are allowed to consent to life-changing therapy, but adults aren't allowed to make similar / less serious decisions. The custom and practice is inconsistent, that's all.

It is not an analogue; one set of treatments has been approved and the other hasn't (yet).

I also do not recognise how you characterise how race is treated in the UK, particularly the inference that legislation has replaced education.

The Race Relations Act was 1965.

Legislation and Education have always been the way things have got done.

Transition therapy will change your body and mind (as a child) in ways that are not necessarily reversible, and whose long-term effects have not been exhaustively studied by RCT studies. Adults are allowed to make that choice, as are children.

Cannabis therapy may change your body and mind in ways that are not necessarily reversible, but whose long-terms effects have been somewhat studied by RCT studies. Neither adults not children are allowed to make that choice.

Re authorisations, at the time the Green child was being treated the therapy was not legal for children in the UK, but no attempt was made to stop the mother from going abroad for a prescription and then (presumably) supplying it at home in the UK. Compare that with the cannabis situation, where such prescribed therapies have been confiscated at the border.

As regards legislation and education, the Race Relations Act 1965 was nothing like the modern legislation we're talking about, and did not address the behaviour which we've been discussing. It dealt only with discrimination in very narrow circumstances.

The Race Relations Act 1976 created the offence of incitement to racial hatred, but that did not cover commentary or bigotry but only words or acts likely to incite racial hatred. The Public Order Act 1986 tightened things up a bit, but it took until the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 to make what we might call "hate speech" illegal in any meaningful way.

The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 added some further wording, but specifically protected free speech, and restricted the offence to certain definitions of intent and effect.

So 1994 - or about 30 years after the initial legislation - was the timeframe before "hate speech" became something to be treated as an offence.

The protection of freedom of discussion has been a common theme in legislation. For instance, the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (which made an offence of "hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to sexual orientation (whether towards persons of the same sex, the opposite sex or both)" was specifically caveated by "for the avoidance of doubt, the discussion or criticism of sexual conduct or practices or the urging of persons to refrain from or modify such conduct or practices shall not be taken of itself to be threatening or intended to stir up hatred."

As for education? That has all but stopped.

[gregs656]

The cannabis discussion is a dead end because it is not approved treatment.

You didn't specify what kind of legislation you were talking about, but certainly your suggestion was that the progress in racism happened independently of legislation which is think is clearly incorrect, as it would be with women's rights and gay rights (for example).

Disagree about education - indeed it is a requirement in schools to teach British Values defined as

'The government defines “fundamental British values” as democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths.'

Indeed look at the fuss over the No Outsiders program in some schools.

edit: also, I think you are confusing a treatment not being approved and it being illegal. You can go to the States for example and get different approved there and you haven't broken any laws. Similarly your wife is free to go to Amsterdam and use cannabis products.

Edited by gregs656 on Thursday 21st March 17:38

[Noodle1982]

It's gone a bit quiet in here.

First it was the trans people in sport debate and now it's trans people in.........prom king/queen debate!

A year ago she started to identify as a male. However she still looks like a female, wears makeup, fake nails and is kicking up a fuss because the school refused her entry into the prom king competition (or whatever it's called)


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6841633/T...

This goes back to one of my previous questions. How long must someone identify as the other gender before they are actually acknowledged as the other gender. What's the point of identifying as the opposite gender if you're still going to present as you biological sex? What's the point of having prom king and queen instead of just prom champion?!

Soooo many questions....

[George Smiley]

Does she want to be a trsnsvestite man?

[George Smiley]

Snowflake students jumping on a #metoo type bandwagon has suggested the school has set a dangerous path for intolerance

fk a duck, the girl is a girl until the state of Georgia recognises her as a he. The school is simply enforcing the law, if that girl gets voted prom king then the genuine boys have been discriminated against

Which toilets does she use to go for a piss?

[anonymous-user]

Okay, I'll bite...

What the fk is going to take to make people like you happy??? .

Mere posts above, you have some complaining that this age bracket is too early for medical invention, that is child abuse and legal proceedings should probably be brought against those who help in the process.

Then a few posts later you are digging into a guy of a similar age range because you think he looks too girly or doesn't fit whatever narrow view of masculinity that you have had implanted into your head.

Should we have a whip around so he can get some tribal tattoos, steroid fuelled muscles, a sharp designer suit, a cheesy rolex, or whatever else you think 'makes teh man' in the 21st century?

Heaven forbid you are a guy that likes make up. That's for GIRLS... Expect when a trans woman puts it in, cos they are actually always going to men in dresses... Amiright?

If you want to have a 'non binary debate', the cause is right here - These unnecessary, outdated, unrealistic ideas of masculinity or femininity that cause so many gender nonconforming people to check out and define themselves, despite the fact that their underlying identity is probably more one way than the other/to the middle.

This idea that we have to go to be an overt charature of our chosen identity full time for an extended period of time in order to have said identity recognised is unfeasible and harmful to many, on top of the social, cultural and physical demands that transitioning entails.

Nobody is a paragon of masculinity or femininity all the time, every time. You do not expect it of cis people, but seemingly expect it if trans people to have a vague chance of their identities being validated.

And George, you never cease to confuse me. Having sex with a trans woman is against your beliefs because it might be seen as a 'homosexual act against your beliefs' or some such nonsense, but you seem particularly interested in where a 17 year old guy goes to use the toilet.

OKAY THEN ...

And inb4 the accusation of sealioning/walrusing/narwhaling/whatever.

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 24th March 12:55

[anonymous-user]

George Smiley said:

So she is a he that likes to dress like a she?

I'm only going by the daily mail pics, but from the looks of those pictures, he is just wearing clothes not gendered one way or the other?

Put it this way, if I posted pics of me wearing the same things you'd hardly be gushing at how fem my dress sense was.

George Smiley said:

And has her parents illegally butchered their child?

Assuming you are talking about the case being discussed earlier? No.

The parents and the young woman involved jointly made a decision to have a surgery that was perfectly legal at the time and age it took place for her.

Nobody got hurt, everyone is happy and a young woman gets to spend the rest of her life in a body she finally feels comfortable in.

[Noodle1982]

George Smiley said:

So she is a he that likes to dress like a she?

That's the bit that adds another dimension to this already complicated gender fiasco.

It's screams of attention seeking.

'I'm a biological female that dresses like a female, wears make up like a female, has fake nails like a female, sounds like a female, presents themselves as fenale but you must address me as a male'

I'm not buying into that narcissism.

[98elise]

skwdenyer said:

8.4L 154 said:

If you think that trans healthcare is well funded and supported then you are seriously misinformed. Wait list are in years. The 18 week right to treatment mandate of the NHS is ignored with zero consequence.

The Tavistock's waiting list seems to be about 1 year at the moment. Adults seem to wait 1-2 years right now.

This compares with mental health where waiting times for actual treatment are not routinely kept, but stretch at least as long as this if not longer. People at immediate risk of self-harm included.

There is some evidence to suggest that mental health waiting times are moderated by suicide and incarceration.

8.4L 154 said:

Personally i'd fully support the availability of medical cannabis if the research shows its beneficial and agree its restriction is political. But I wouldn't use that as an argument to restrict the healthcare of another section of society who face their own substantial inequalities in a kind of, I cant get what I want so no once else can have anything either argument.

It is possible I'm not explaining myself; it also possible that you are continually mischaracterising my points (is that a hate crime?)

I have never said that "because I can't have X, you can't have Y", nor have I implied it or supported it. I've consistently attempted to maintain a balanced view to this otherwise very hot debate.

What I have said is that I think there is a matter of public policy and public debate that is not being properly handled.

From the point of view of a substantial majority of the population, people are born to their gender. As a wise person once said, the most important part of growing up is understanding that the person you see in the mirror is the person you have to live with for the rest of your life. Many - most? - of the population see that as "the way things are." Most people don't get to ask the NHS to do very much about their appearance if they don't like it.

That doesn't mean that gender dysphoria is not a real syndrome. But it does mean that going from a position where most poeple view it as "other" to a position where to suggest it is "other" is a hate crime in just a very short number of years is a huge leap, and inevitably a large proportion of the population will be left behind by that shift.

Public perceptions of mental health, homosexuality, and various other issues have had to travel a similar path. I'm not sure that such shifts have ever happened so quickly.

If I were to accuse somebody with ME of being lazy or a Fibro sufferer of just complaining too much of everyday aches and pains (in effect denying their condition, a very common occurrence), are you seriously trying to suggest that I would be subject to the sort of vitriol that would accompany an accusation of a trans person still being their birth gender? Society has not been taken on this journey; government has not legislated equally; authority has not acted equally.

Failure to carry the population is a political problem. What people can do to themselves, or their children, is a matter of public policy, but also a political issue. How the NHS is operated is also both a matter of public policy and a political issue. We cannot separate those drivers.

That is what a proper debate should entail; not mob rule, but a consistent and coherent approach to dealing with a range of issues so that those with the relevant conditions are treated equally. That does not happen right now, and many people are upset that there is such apparent inconsistency and perhaps favouring of one minority over other groups.

My daughter has mental health issues. We waited at least 18 month for treatment, and when it came it was 6 sessions of group therapy which is totally useless for someone with social anxiety. She simply said nothing for the first 3 sessions, then very little for the remaining 3.

[George Smiley]

98elise said:

My daughter has mental health issues. We waited at least 18 month for treatment, and when it came it was 6 sessions of group therapy which is totally useless for someone with social anxiety. She simply said nothing for the first 3 sessions, then very little for the remaining 3.

Sadly enough my suicidal friends just had her intensive assessment and put on an 18 month waiting list for some therapy


If she’s not dead by then she will have cured herself