The Gender Non-binary debate.

[gregs656]

andysgriff said:

So, are you saying that 100's of millions of Muslims are bigoted just because they don't recognise LGBT rights?

Is there really any question at all about this??

[andysgriff]

gregs656 said:

andysgriff said:

So, are you saying that 100's of millions of Muslims are bigoted just because they don't recognise LGBT rights?

Is there really any question at all about this??

Well that's why I'm asking the question, so what's the answer?

[Clockwork Cupcake]

andysgriff said:

So, are you saying that 100's of millions of Muslims are bigoted just because they don't recognise LGBT rights?

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that institutionalised sexism, patriarchy, homophobia and, yes, transphobia, are all enshrined in law in some countries. That's "simply" a statement of fact.

Brunei have just introduced the penalty of death by stoning for homosexuality, for example.

[gregs656]

andysgriff said:

Well that's why I'm asking the question, so what's the answer?

The answer is yes.

It’s not the first word I would use, but if you plucked your average conservative Muslim out of a Middle Eastern theocracy and discussed their views on women (even from the women), gay people, apostates, people who follow different forms of Islam to them, non-believers generally to be honest then I am not sure you could sensibly not use the word bigoted; they are, after all, intolerant of other POV.

[andysgriff]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that institutionalised sexism, patriarchy, homophobia and, yes, transphobia, are all enshrined in law in some countries. That's "simply" a statement of fact.

Brunei have just introduced the penalty of death by stoning for homosexuality, for example.

The majority of muslims believe these values so where do you go from there? Are they all full of hate and bigotry because some people have mental issues and want other people to recognise them for a gender they are scientifically not

[Clockwork Cupcake]

andysgriff said:

The majority of muslims believe these values so where do you go from there? Are they all full of hate and bigotry because some people have mental issues and want other people to recognise them for a gender they are scientifically not

Do I think we should say "fair enough, I'm fine with this" for them having a law where they can execute a man for being in love with another man? I certainly don't. I think it's hateful and barbaric, and I am happy to stand up and say that it is.

[andysgriff]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Do I think we should say "fair enough, I'm fine with this" for them having a law where they can execute a man for being in love with another man? I certainly don't. I think it's hateful and barbaric, and I am happy to stand up and say that it is.

Great, but I thought this was a gender thing? Gay rights is another matter isnt it?

[gregs656]

andysgriff said:

Great, but I thought this was a gender thing? Gay rights is another matter isnt it?

You asked about LGBT rights.

In all cases we should hope that the values of the enlightenment prevail in places they have not done yet, such as the Middle East.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

andysgriff said:

Great, but I thought this was a gender thing? Gay rights is another matter isnt it?

Where did I focus solely on the gender thing?

I said that in some countries, hate and bigotry is enshrined in law. And it is.

gregs656 said:

You asked about LGBT rights.

In all cases we should hope that the values of the enlightenment prevail in places they have not done yet, such as the Middle East.

Exactly.

[andysgriff]

gregs656 said:

You asked about LGBT rights.

In all cases we should hope that the values of the enlightenment prevail in places they have not done yet, such as the Middle East.

Exactly.

Or millions of people in Indonesia, Malaysia etc, or many towns and cities in the UK.. I wouldnt put money on the ‘enlightenment’ making a dent in those places any time soon.

So if you are so passionate about this why not go and spread the word, instead of spending hours arguing on the internet?

Also not sure the enlightenment movement had transgenders on the a-gender

[Mothersruin]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

andysgriff said:

The majority of muslims believe these values so where do you go from there? Are they all full of hate and bigotry because some people have mental issues and want other people to recognise them for a gender they are scientifically not

Do I think we should say "fair enough, I'm fine with this" for them having a law where they can execute a man for being in love with another man? I certainly don't. I think it's hateful and barbaric, and I am happy to stand up and say that it is.

Lucky you live here then.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

andysgriff said:

So if you are so passionate about this why not go and spread the word, instead of spending hours arguing on the internet?

So that this thread can go back to being a cozy little place where bigots can talk about trans people rather than being forced to defend their bigoted views to trans people, you mean?

[andysgriff]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

So that this thread can go back to being a cozy little place where bigots can talk about trans people rather than being forced to defend their bigoted views to trans people, you mean?

Few people care much about trans people, thankfully, most people can see through the claptrap. More people are fed up being told we have to call them a certain gender when scientifically they are not. Does not agreeing to call them what they think they are but genetically are not make someone ‘full of hate’ and bigoted?

Good luck defending your cause from your chair.

[gregs656]

andysgriff said:

Or millions of people in Indonesia, Malaysia etc, or many towns and cities in the UK.. I wouldnt put money on the ‘enlightenment’ making a dent in those places any time soon.

So if you are so passionate about this why not go and spread the word, instead of spending hours arguing on the internet?

Also not sure the enlightenment movement had transgenders on the a-gender

But it will, or at least, I hope it does. I don’t suppose people thought it would happen in Europe until it did. Certainly it is ongoing even in Britain and many other European countries as you say, even the states whose entire governmental set up is based on Enlightenment principles struggles.

I am not sure why you are putting scare quotes around Enlightenment?

I am passionate about it but I am not sure I would want to ‘spread the word’ like some religious missionary. Of course arguing on the internet gives you a platform which is global anyway.

One of the attractive things about having a set of principles rather than a set of specific rules is that principles can be applied to all kinds of things.

[Noodle1982]

Do white females who change their gender to male then have white male privilege?

[gregs656]

andysgriff said:

Few people care much about trans people, thankfully, most people can see through the claptrap. More people are fed up being told we have to call them a certain gender when scientifically they are not. Does not agreeing to call them what they think they are but genetically are not make someone ‘full of hate’ and bigoted?

Good luck defending your cause from your chair.

Employing science in this way makes you look like you don’t really know what you are talking about.

[8.4L 154]

Noodle1982 said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Noodle1982 said:

Do you disagree with what I posted?

I agree that there are places in the world where hatred and bigotry are enshrined in law.

The fact that you use the word "simply" with regard to misgendering someone rather speaks volumes though.

Why does it?

We've seen on numerous occasions people getting into trouble simply for misgendering someone.

Except they haven't simply misgendered someone. Simply misgendering someone is what the media has reported in a few cases but in the background there has been an ongoing targeted harassment of someone by some rather nasty anti trans people who have connections in the press.

There has been nothing simple about any of the cases we have heard about, you just haven't heard the whole story. In fact most of what you have read in the press has been a fabrication and twisting of facts to the point they are unrecognisable to anyone who has witnessed what has actually gone on.

[Davos123]

Noodle1982 said:

Do white females who change their gender to male then have white male privilege?

No

[Davos123]

andysgriff said:

More people are fed up being told we have to call them a certain gender when scientifically they are not.

You really need to type "what is gender?" Into Google and do 10 mins of reading before spouting nonsense like this.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

andysgriff said:

More people are fed up being told we have to call them a certain gender when scientifically they are not.

How exactly does it impact you to play along with the charade, if that's what you consider it to be, for the sake of politeness? If someone is presenting as female, what exactly is the harm in just treating them as such, or at the very least using female pronouns for them, even if you are laughing behind their back at it?

Were I to meet you face to face, I would do my best to be polite to you regardless of what I actually think of you. I'm just asking you to do the same for me, which includes using female pronouns.