The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
George, a situation that most CIS males have been in. You're in a changing room, and a father is out alone with his young daughter, therefore he has no option to take her in to the changing room with him.
Do you A) flaunt your package at her, giving her an infant full monty.
Or B) change as discretely as possible, ideally in a cubicle, or if not free/available facing away from her etc.
So why would CC or any other trans at any stage be any different?
Another thought (and I assure you, I'm not trying to tell you how to parent)
You don't just drop bombshells on kids, you gradually help them understand things. You'd never need to say (and I'm being deliberately OTT) 'darling, that woman used to be a man, but she still has a cock' you'd trust that the Trans shows apt discretion/ respect that there are young eyes present, leaving you to introduce such concepts along with sexualities etc at a slow pace.
My little sister is adopted, and also has Downs, so is not as sharp as your daughter (likely) is. Mum and Dad from the age of about 5 slowly introduced the subject that she's their 'adopted daughter' and that another lady gave birth to her. She's 33 now, and she fully gets the concept, has for years. There was no 'darling we need to tell you something' moment.
Do you A) flaunt your package at her, giving her an infant full monty.
Or B) change as discretely as possible, ideally in a cubicle, or if not free/available facing away from her etc.
So why would CC or any other trans at any stage be any different?
Another thought (and I assure you, I'm not trying to tell you how to parent)
You don't just drop bombshells on kids, you gradually help them understand things. You'd never need to say (and I'm being deliberately OTT) 'darling, that woman used to be a man, but she still has a cock' you'd trust that the Trans shows apt discretion/ respect that there are young eyes present, leaving you to introduce such concepts along with sexualities etc at a slow pace.
My little sister is adopted, and also has Downs, so is not as sharp as your daughter (likely) is. Mum and Dad from the age of about 5 slowly introduced the subject that she's their 'adopted daughter' and that another lady gave birth to her. She's 33 now, and she fully gets the concept, has for years. There was no 'darling we need to tell you something' moment.
Edited by Fermit and Sexy Sarah on Wednesday 24th April 09:23
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
I think it highly unlikely that a pre op trans girl would be in a female space, ferris wheeling their cock in your daughters face.
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
George, a situation that most CIS males have been in. You're in a changing room, and a father is out alone with his young daughter, therefore he has no option to take her in to the changing room with him.
Do you A) flaunt your package at her, giving her an infant full monty.
Or B) change as discretely as possible, ideally in a cubicle, or if not free/available facing away from her etc.
So why would CC or any other trans at any stage be any different?
Well, quite. Exactly. Do you A) flaunt your package at her, giving her an infant full monty.
Or B) change as discretely as possible, ideally in a cubicle, or if not free/available facing away from her etc.
So why would CC or any other trans at any stage be any different?
Clockwork Cupcake said:
This might help. 
That's a bit like saying there shouldn't be age specific toys because a 2 year old has all the necessary physical attributes to handle a chemistry set. Or that a 12 year old will happily play with wooden blocks. Of course that would be beneath their abilities as it would be for a 12 year old girl to be stuck with only a tea set instead of a chemistry set which would be poor parenting rather than oppression by the status quo. It's great that kids can play with whatever toys they wish these days, although no one beat me for holding a doll 30 odd years ago, so I'm not sure where I've had anything forced upon me like playing football (along with netball at school but couldn't join the team as no other schools had boys) or being attracted to women. Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
I think it highly unlikely that a pre op trans girl would be in a female space, ferris wheeling their cock in your daughters face. More likely just getting on with the job of getting changed in a cubicle, trying to avoid attention.
Have you thought about asking women about it (the ones who were born with a uterus)?I would try here first https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights?order=
Let us know how you get on.
Supercilious Sid said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
I think it highly unlikely that a pre op trans girl would be in a female space, ferris wheeling their cock in your daughters face. More likely just getting on with the job of getting changed in a cubicle, trying to avoid attention.
Have you thought about asking women about it (the ones who were born with a uterus)?I would try here first https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights?order=
Let us know how you get on.
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/1875...
Their CEO has also been quite clear on their policy regarding Trans hate speach.
https://www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderati...
Edited by Fermit and Sexy Sarah on Wednesday 24th April 10:35
George Smiley said:
Of course belittle an opinion with ridicule.
The idea women’s changing areas all have cubicles is a joke. Most gyms appear to still operate open changing areas for men and women.
Personally I don’t feel comfortable with my daughter being potentially exposed to it, any issue with that??
The whole binary debate is ok in adulthood but with young impressionable minds I believe there is a danger in confusing them to a point they question their own views on their own gender.
You don't have to give in to the societal pressure of being au fait with such issues and imparting a thorough education to your children on something that no one really understands. The idea women’s changing areas all have cubicles is a joke. Most gyms appear to still operate open changing areas for men and women.
Personally I don’t feel comfortable with my daughter being potentially exposed to it, any issue with that??
The whole binary debate is ok in adulthood but with young impressionable minds I believe there is a danger in confusing them to a point they question their own views on their own gender.
Not to undermine your concerns but I'd like to think your presence at least ensures her safety, while adult women often feel threatened in the opposite scenario, a fear they're made to feel bigoted for expressing.
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
Their CEO has also been quite clear on their policy regarding Trans hate speach.
https://www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderati...
I have to say that is a very fair and cogent statement. Much respect to her for that. https://www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderati...
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
Their CEO has also been quite clear on their policy regarding Trans hate speach.
https://www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderati...
I have to say that is a very fair and cogent statement. Much respect to her for that. https://www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderati...
8.4L 154 said:
Except its not enforced in a balanced manner. Trans voices are banned regularly just for posting a trans positive message whilst many of the banned and offensive terms are regularly used by the gender critical majority population of FWR. The discussion on this thread could not take place on mumsnet for instance. Its a policy designed to fend off legal action and pacify advertisers as it was put in place at a time where there was intense advertising revenue pressures placed on mumsnet. I'm not sure it will be long before they find out its no legal defence as its regularly flouted by the frequent posters. Mumsnet is already being seen and recognised by MP's as a source of hate speech on trans issues and recent discussions about online hate speech legislation included them alongside other more traditional online hate sites.
Fair enough. I have never visited mumsnet and have no real desire to. I have heard that it is not dissimilar to Mos Eisley Spaceport. 
8.4L 154 said:
Except its not enforced in a balanced manner. Trans voices are banned regularly just for posting a trans positive message whilst many of the banned and offensive terms are regularly used by the gender critical majority population of FWR. The discussion on this thread could not take place on mumsnet for instance. Its a policy designed to fend off legal action and pacify advertisers as it was put in place at a time where there was intense advertising revenue pressures placed on mumsnet. I'm not sure it will be long before they find out its no legal defence as its regularly flouted by the frequent posters. Mumsnet is already being seen and recognised by MP's as a source of hate speech on trans issues and recent discussions about online hate speech legislation included them alongside other more traditional online hate sites.
Mumsnet is usually seen as the voice of middle class mums. If you are describing it as a nest of hate speech perhaps you need to question how much is hate and how much is basic common sense and the protection of women. JagLover said:
8.4L 154 said:
Except its not enforced in a balanced manner. Trans voices are banned regularly just for posting a trans positive message whilst many of the banned and offensive terms are regularly used by the gender critical majority population of FWR. The discussion on this thread could not take place on mumsnet for instance. Its a policy designed to fend off legal action and pacify advertisers as it was put in place at a time where there was intense advertising revenue pressures placed on mumsnet. I'm not sure it will be long before they find out its no legal defence as its regularly flouted by the frequent posters. Mumsnet is already being seen and recognised by MP's as a source of hate speech on trans issues and recent discussions about online hate speech legislation included them alongside other more traditional online hate sites.
Mumsnet is usually seen as the voice of middle class mums. If you are describing it as a nest of hate speech perhaps you need to question how much is hate and how much is basic common sense and the protection of women. JagLover said:
Mumsnet is usually seen as the voice of middle class mums. If you are describing it as a nest of hate speech perhaps you need to question how much is hate and how much is basic common sense and the protection of women.
Defending mumsnet on PH, I never thought I'd live to see the day.JagLover said:
Mumsnet is usually seen as the voice of middle class mums. If you are describing it as a nest of hate speech perhaps you need to question how much is hate and how much is basic common sense and the protection of women.
In fairness, a similar criticism could be levelled against many of the threads in "News, Politics & Economics" here on PH. Many unpleasant opinions can be dressed up in the clothes of "common sense" and "reasonableness" and "majority opinion" but that doesn't make those opinions any more pleasant.
JagLover said:
8.4L 154 said:
Except its not enforced in a balanced manner. Trans voices are banned regularly just for posting a trans positive message whilst many of the banned and offensive terms are regularly used by the gender critical majority population of FWR. The discussion on this thread could not take place on mumsnet for instance. Its a policy designed to fend off legal action and pacify advertisers as it was put in place at a time where there was intense advertising revenue pressures placed on mumsnet. I'm not sure it will be long before they find out its no legal defence as its regularly flouted by the frequent posters. Mumsnet is already being seen and recognised by MP's as a source of hate speech on trans issues and recent discussions about online hate speech legislation included them alongside other more traditional online hate sites.
Mumsnet is usually seen as the voice of middle class mums. If you are describing it as a nest of hate speech perhaps you need to question how much is hate and how much is basic common sense and the protection of women. Clockwork Cupcake said:
JagLover said:
Mumsnet is usually seen as the voice of middle class mums. If you are describing it as a nest of hate speech perhaps you need to question how much is hate and how much is basic common sense and the protection of women.
In fairness, a similar criticism could be levelled against many of the threads in "News, Politics & Economics" here on PH. Many unpleasant opinions can be dressed up in the clothes of "common sense" and "reasonableness" and "majority opinion" but that doesn't make those opinions any more pleasant.
George Smiley said:
JagLover said:
8.4L 154 said:
Except its not enforced in a balanced manner. Trans voices are banned regularly just for posting a trans positive message whilst many of the banned and offensive terms are regularly used by the gender critical majority population of FWR. The discussion on this thread could not take place on mumsnet for instance. Its a policy designed to fend off legal action and pacify advertisers as it was put in place at a time where there was intense advertising revenue pressures placed on mumsnet. I'm not sure it will be long before they find out its no legal defence as its regularly flouted by the frequent posters. Mumsnet is already being seen and recognised by MP's as a source of hate speech on trans issues and recent discussions about online hate speech legislation included them alongside other more traditional online hate sites.
Mumsnet is usually seen as the voice of middle class mums. If you are describing it as a nest of hate speech perhaps you need to question how much is hate and how much is basic common sense and the protection of women. https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe
George Smiley said:
Sometimes the right option isn’t the pleasant option.
And very often unpleasant opinions are not right. I struggle to see how bigotry and intolerance are ever right.
But I'll continue to argue that I should be treated with respect and tolerance, and you (and those aligned with you) can continue to argue that I shouldn't. History will show which of us is on the right side, just like it did with the Civil Rights Movement, the Gay Rights Movement, etc. Opinions that seemed perfectly reasonable and "right" back then would very much not be today. And perhaps the same will be true of transphobia in the future.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
And very often unpleasant opinions are not right.
I struggle to see how bigotry and intolerance are ever right.
But I'll continue to argue that I should be treated with respect and tolerance, and you (and those aligned with you) can continue to argue that I shouldn't. History will show which of us is on the right side, just like it did with the Civil Rights Movement, the Gay Rights Movement, etc. Opinions that seemed perfectly reasonable and "right" back then would very much not be today. And perhaps the same will be true of transphobia in the future.
What is the end goal for the trans community? I struggle to see how bigotry and intolerance are ever right.
But I'll continue to argue that I should be treated with respect and tolerance, and you (and those aligned with you) can continue to argue that I shouldn't. History will show which of us is on the right side, just like it did with the Civil Rights Movement, the Gay Rights Movement, etc. Opinions that seemed perfectly reasonable and "right" back then would very much not be today. And perhaps the same will be true of transphobia in the future.
As far as I know they have the same rights as everyone else in the country. What else do they want?
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