The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
jfire said:
Scottish Wyldcat said:
Cisfolk make babies = meh, Transfolk make babies = war.
And a lot of the former shouldn't but are the latter doing so out of evolutionary programming?Whilst not denying transgenderism is genuine, when you hear of so many younger folk thinking they are binary neutral, the wrong gender or whatever it must raise the question are they being confused and misled?
InitialDave said:
I don't think trans women should be allowed to compete in sports with biological women. There's a lot more to it than just testosterone levels, and the short answer is I don't think there's a way for it to be made fair. There are performance advantages inherent to being born and developing as male which are not negated if you later become transgender.
However, I really don't like how it's characterised by some who nominally share my opinion, with stuff like "cheating" and "men pretending to be women in order to win". That's just unnecessary, and I think such attitudes aren't at all helpful to the debate. It should just be about whether it's fair competition.
If someone can come up with a metric by which things can be kept fair, yep, crack on with it, no problem at all. I'd actively want that, as being trans shouldn't be a barrier to being able to compete in sports - it just shouldn't confer you an advantage if you do, and at present, that seems to be a problem.
I think the issue is not that trans people will use this as an excuse to win, but more that non-trans athletes will be pushed into 'transitioning', i.e. the bare minimum as per the rules, to up total medal counts in a given competition. People underestimate the lengths that less scrupulous state run sports programs will go to.However, I really don't like how it's characterised by some who nominally share my opinion, with stuff like "cheating" and "men pretending to be women in order to win". That's just unnecessary, and I think such attitudes aren't at all helpful to the debate. It should just be about whether it's fair competition.
If someone can come up with a metric by which things can be kept fair, yep, crack on with it, no problem at all. I'd actively want that, as being trans shouldn't be a barrier to being able to compete in sports - it just shouldn't confer you an advantage if you do, and at present, that seems to be a problem.
On the contrary there's no evidence that it's happened yet but the rules only changed recently. It can also be argued that the cost and expense of taking an underperforming male athlete and getting him to medal in the women's competition would be better spent on developing a promising female athlete. It's an open secret that most athletes at Olympic level are on some kind of PED program anyway, so it doesn't make sense to add the extra expense and complication of HRT.
George Smiley said:
Whilst not denying transgenderism is genuine, when you hear of so many younger folk thinking they are binary neutral, the wrong gender or whatever it must raise the question are they being confused and misled?
Well this is the new scandal clinicians have resigned over, not over their objections to such treatment being offered, but where it's, they feel, 'pushed' on those who may just be confused about their sexuality, whether that be by 'progressive' parents, the trans lobby, or 'groundbreaking' consultants._dobbo_ said:
……..
What this thread has shown us is that people will find a way to make any situation a bad situation if it suits their agenda.
Nope, what this thread shows is that the same freedom of expression used by some people to live in an unconventional way, is used by other people to say they don't like it.What this thread has shown us is that people will find a way to make any situation a bad situation if it suits their agenda.
jfire said:
George Smiley said:
Whilst not denying transgenderism is genuine, when you hear of so many younger folk thinking they are binary neutral, the wrong gender or whatever it must raise the question are they being confused and misled?
Well this is the new scandal clinicians have resigned over, not over their objections to such treatment being offered, but where it's, they feel, 'pushed' on those who may just be confused about their sexuality, whether that be by 'progressive' parents, the trans lobby, or 'groundbreaking' consultants.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Some of that could be down to testosterone though.
Anecdotally, I have a trans friend who is on female hormones and she says that when she has an argument with her wife, whereas before she would get aggressive and angry, and experience the "red mist", now she generally bursts into tears and they end up hugging and sorting things out rather than continuing a blazing row.
Can I ask, were they married before your friend transitioned? If so, how does the wife feel now that her husband is her wife? Is she fully transitioning (if that's the right term, ie, is she having a full op)? Clearly they love each other etc, but there is the sexual connotations of the transition and it's impact on the marriage that I would like to understand.Anecdotally, I have a trans friend who is on female hormones and she says that when she has an argument with her wife, whereas before she would get aggressive and angry, and experience the "red mist", now she generally bursts into tears and they end up hugging and sorting things out rather than continuing a blazing row.
wisbech said:
For sport - up to each governing body. For example, motorsport (afaik) doesn’t have male/ female F1 races
For motor racing it isn't really an issue though is it? If the girls are good enough they get the seat. I think in Motorsport more often than it's down to the old case of more blokes are into cars and tracing than girls. Which is a fact, there are a lot of great female drivers though and I don't think that a transgender woman, or man for that matter, would have any advantage over any one else. I mentioned earlier in the thread of a transgender girl I met when I lived in Orlando, she was a pretty successful driver herself. Raced as a bloke and a woman.Recently, and it may have been mentioned in this thread I can't remember, there was an intention to start a woman's only race series. I think it has happened, but a lot of the girl racers went mad, saying it was unnecessary and just created more of a divide.
InitialDave said:
Yeah, that's fair enough. As I said, if I felt it was running on a metric that was fair, I'd be fine with it. I think the current metric generally used - both in that it concentrates on testosterone levels, as well as what those levels are - isn't fair.
When I say I don't think trans women should be allowed to compete with biological women, that's on the basis of how things are right this minute with the rules that are being applied, not an absolute never-ever kind of thing. There's quite possibly an answer that has yet to present itself.
I think CC had it right when she said it should be left up to the Governing Bodies. The impact of physicality will vary between sports, and the experts in each should determine whether a trans-woman would be at an unfair advantage. When I say I don't think trans women should be allowed to compete with biological women, that's on the basis of how things are right this minute with the rules that are being applied, not an absolute never-ever kind of thing. There's quite possibly an answer that has yet to present itself.
I think it might also change in future. With the greater understanding of trans issues, and trans- people being able to access treatment at a younger age, certainly where puberty is delayed until appropriate hormone treatment starts it might become less of an issue.
Rivenink said:
I think CC had it right when she said it should be left up to the Governing Bodies. The impact of physicality will vary between sports, and the experts in each should determine whether a trans-woman would be at an unfair advantage.
I suppose it's that determining that I think would be problematic, for me anyway, to even attempt to do it seems problematic to me.AshVX220 said:
Can I ask, were they married before your friend transitioned? If so, how does the wife feel now that her husband is her wife? Is she fully transitioning (if that's the right term, ie, is she having a full op)? Clearly they love each other etc, but there is the sexual connotations of the transition and it's impact on the marriage that I would like to understand.
Yes, they were married before. The wife is still coming to terms with things as she considers herself essentially straight but still in love with the same person. I haven't enquired as to their bedroom arrangements as I don't think it is any of my business. But I'm sure they'll work it out somehow. Or not, as the case may be.
AshVX220 said:
I think it has happened, but a lot of the girl racers went mad, saying it was unnecessary and just created more of a divide.
Indeed they did. And I am against the idea of it too. By all means encourage female racing drivers. Give them bursaries and scholarships. Give them the breaks they need to break into a male-dominated sport. But making a women-only series is patting them on the head and saying "There there, dears. You go play racing drivers in your own make-pretend series and leave the proper racing series to the men".
David Coulthard, who backed the new series, said he believed "men and women could compete on equal terms in motorsport", and completely failed to see the irony in that statement.
George Smiley said:
I imagine eventually it will fail as essentially other than the love aspect her (the wife) has lived as part of a lie.
Many couples stay together long after their sex life has died. There's more to a relationship than sex. And the wife has not lived as part of a lie. She has lived through her partner evolving into being the real them. In many ways that is more likely to strengthen the relationship than weaken it.
I'm sure it will cause the wife to question her own sexuality, and whether or not that becomes a show-stopper is entirely a matter for them.
George Smiley said:
We've covered this before, but Jordan Peterson deliberately misrepresents that law. The fact it's the hill he chose to die on, despite the same piece of legislation limiting free speech in many other years for decades, is very telling, too.Cathy Newman is a terrible interviewer. Don't let that confuse you into believing JP isn't full s
t.
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