The Gender Non-binary debate.

[NoVetec]

George Smiley said:

Funny you mention the frontal lobe mine stopped functioning properly following a brain injury makes empathy a challenge at times

Can relate in a sense, no injuries but I don't have much emotional empathy. But thankfully have cognitive empathy to fall back on. Imagination techniques can help improve cognitive empathy.

[George Smiley]

NoVetec said:

George Smiley said:

Funny you mention the frontal lobe mine stopped functioning properly following a brain injury makes empathy a challenge at times

Can relate in a sense, no injuries but I don't have much emotional empathy. But thankfully have cognitive empathy to fall back on. Imagination techniques can help improve cognitive empathy.

Way o:t here, took 5 years to be able to talk (not say words but have a conversation) and 6 to walk

Your brains anazing I can remember the precise moment my brain reworked to overcome damaged pathways, knocked me over and the next day I could have conversations and stuff

Pre accident memory is pin sharp any post accident memory is like early onset dementia I survive on experience as I can’t retain new knowledge easy

No excuse for being a rude tt and all that

[anonymous-user]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

I just got called "sir" in Tesco Express today. I had been under the illusion (or, rather, delusion) that I looked pretty feminine.

I didn't have a rant, I didn't blow a gasket. I didn't even say anything. I just feel depressed now that I didn't pass as female.

That's the reality of being transgender, despite some of you thinking we're all screaming radicals intent on locking people up for hate speech.

*sighs*

Ouch.

Unfortunately I can relate

Just had my first date after starting transition. I was feeling on top of the world, thought I was looking good and passing enough at least good enough to warrant the right pronouns. Let me swing into Tesco from a bottle of wine to celebrate.

Nope. I get ID'ed (Still in my old name, but I'm nearly 30 for christ sake and DO NOT look underaged) and then a rather aggressive "Thanks, SIR" when the spotty oik returned my license without the decency to even make eye contact :-/.

Similarly, no fuss. I paid, went home and continued my life.

Anecdotally, not the first time something similar has happened. It seems if I make an effort with my appearance, I almost always get ID'ed and a similarly awkward exchange. Chuck on a random polo shirt with me looking half dead and buy the same stuff, no problems. Ever. Life is strange .

But all in all the day has inspired me to bump up my coming out at work so I can finally get my documents changed so I can rightly go all berserk in these situations like all trans peeps are supposed to. /s

[George Smiley]

WorldBoss said:

Ouch.

Unfortunately I can relate

Just had my first date after starting transition. I was feeling on top of the world, thought I was looking good and passing enough at least good enough to warrant the right pronouns. Let me swing into Tesco from a bottle of wine to celebrate.

Nope. I get ID'ed (Still in my old name, but I'm nearly 30 for christ sake and DO NOT look underaged) and then a rather aggressive "Thanks, SIR" when the spotty oik returned my license without the decency to even make eye contact :-/.

Similarly, no fuss. I paid, went home and continued my life.

Anecdotally, not the first time something similar has happened. It seems if I make an effort with my appearance, I almost always get ID'ed and a similarly awkward exchange. Chuck on a random polo shirt with me looking half dead and buy the same stuff, no problems. Ever. Life is strange .

But all in all the day has inspired me to bump up my coming out at work so I can finally get my documents changed so I can rightly go all berserk in these situations like all trans peeps are supposed to. /s

That sucks. For all my concerns about nonexistent scenarios there’s no need for someone to be like that

[Clockwork Cupcake]

George Smiley said:

That sucks. For all my concerns about nonexistent scenarios there’s no need for someone to be like that

Absolutely. Totally out of order.

Ironically, I'd probably cope better if someone was being a deliberate dick about it. At least that way you know it's them not you. If that makes any sense.

Being accidentally misgendered is more of a confidence knock to me.

Having said that, I think I would have been really upset in such a scenario. But that upset would probably be directed into anger and possible retribution, rather than internalised into self-doubt.
Mind you, that's easy for me to say from the comfort of my sofa.

Sorry you had to go through that, WorldBoss

[George Smiley]

I still believe in only two pronouns and genders btw and men can’t have babies

Just so normal disservice can resume tomorrow

[Clockwork Cupcake]

George Smiley said:

I still believe in only two pronouns and genders btw and men can’t have babies

Just so normal disservice can resume tomorrow

[anonymous-user]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

George Smiley said:

That sucks. For all my concerns about nonexistent scenarios there’s no need for someone to be like that

Absolutely. Totally out of order.

Ironically, I'd probably cope better if someone was being a deliberate dick about it. At least that way you know it's them not you. If that makes any sense.

Being accidentally misgendered is more of a confidence knock to me.

Having said that, I think I would have been really upset in such a scenario. But that upset would probably be directed into anger and possible retribution, rather than internalised into self-doubt.
Mind you, that's easy for me to say from the comfort of my sofa.

Sorry you had to go through that, WorldBoss

Thanks for the words .

Like I mentioned, it has happened before, but not when I had real confidence in how I looked/presented so it is was hard to put 2 and 2 together. Today I genuinely did, but I guess I'm trying to remember the confidence and happiness within myself more than that one random awkward interaction. Personally I found it not to be as bad or upsetting as I thought it might be. It hurt, but not enough to want to make a scene or dissuade me from wanting to continue at least trying.

Which ties in nicely with the work thing because I'm in a customer facing role and misgendering/awkwardness is my number one fear. Going through it at the height of my confidence wasn't that bad, so having it happen at work doesn't seem nearly as daunting as before.

[George Smiley]

Unfortunately you’ll get st, people will do it on purpose etc. Don’t let us bds get you down and even when you say you won’t, you know it will

Give friends that don’t know time to adjust before ruling them out.

[andy_s]

George Smiley said:

I still believe in only two pronouns and genders btw and men can’t have babies

Just so normal disservice can resume tomorrow

[Gooseberry]

InitialDave said:

I don't think trans women should be allowed to compete in sports with biological women. There's a lot more to it than just testosterone levels, and the short answer is I don't think there's a way for it to be made fair. There are performance advantages inherent to being born and developing as male which are not negated if you later become transgender.

However, I really don't like how it's characterised by some who nominally share my opinion, with stuff like "cheating" and "men pretending to be women in order to win". That's just unnecessary, and I think such attitudes aren't at all helpful to the debate. It should just be about whether it's fair competition.

If someone can come up with a metric by which things can be kept fair, yep, crack on with it, no problem at all. I'd actively want that, as being trans shouldn't be a barrier to being able to compete in sports - it just shouldn't confer you an advantage if you do, and at present, that seems to be a problem.

One answer could be to shake up how the competitions are structured, e.g. have:

1. Open competition. Competing to be the best of the best, anyone can enter. In practice it will be dominated by biological males.
2. Restricted competitions, so groups whose performance is handicapped can compete with their peers. There would be a subgroup for biological females, another group for trans women (biological males with reduced testosterone), etc., and you will have to meet certain qualification criteria to be allowed in each group, like the system in place for the paralympics.

I don't understand why in the current system trans women compete in the women's competition. A body that's gone through male puberty but now has reduced testosterone doesn't equal a female body. No other males with medical interventions that reduce their performance are allowed to compete in the women's group. Why should gender role/gender identity come into it? After all if you start using gender as the criterion for entry, in which group do the genderfree or 'two spirit' people go?

[PorkRind]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

I just got called "sir" in Tesco Express today. I had been under the illusion (or, rather, delusion) that I looked pretty feminine.

I didn't have a rant, I didn't blow a gasket. I didn't even say anything. I just feel depressed now that I didn't pass as female.

That's the reality of being transgender, despite some of you thinking we're all screaming radicals intent on locking people up for hate speech.

*sighs*

Well maybe it's the hands and facial Structure need some Work To pass?

[Clockwork Cupcake]

PorkRind said:

Well maybe it's the hands and facial Structure need some Work To pass?

What information are you basing that on? Actual knowledge (unlikely since I have never posted a picture of myself) or prejudice and stereotyping?

[_dobbo_]

PorkRind said:

Well maybe it's the hands and facial Structure need some Work To pass?

Seems your personality might need some "Work To pass" as not a terrible person. Something to think about maybe.

[Algarve]

Gooseberry said:

One answer could be to shake up how the competitions are structured, e.g. have:

1. Open competition. Competing to be the best of the best, anyone can enter. In practice it will be dominated by biological males.

The only way this would work is if you then move all womens stuff to where it should be... the Special Olympics.

[George Smiley]

Worldboss how did your date go?

[rover 623gsi]

PorkRind said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

I just got called "sir" in Tesco Express today. I had been under the illusion (or, rather, delusion) that I looked pretty feminine.

I didn't have a rant, I didn't blow a gasket. I didn't even say anything. I just feel depressed now that I didn't pass as female.

That's the reality of being transgender, despite some of you thinking we're all screaming radicals intent on locking people up for hate speech.

*sighs*

Well maybe it's the hands and facial Structure need some Work To pass?

I suspect that the vast majority of trans women do not look 'pass' as women. At best, they pass as a trans woman. At worst they pass as a bloke trying like a woman. I also suspect that most people who tell a trans woman that they look like a woman are doing so in order to be polite.

As I'm sure CC knows, the female body is very different to a male body in many ways other than just genitalia. For example, even if a male and female of the same height stood next to each other it would easy to tell them apart. The male will have larger feet and hands than the female. He will also have broader shoulders. The female will have longer legs, wider hips. There is a whole bunch of other stuff.. Males and females even have different elbow joints. All of these things mean that in 99% of cases it is pretty easy to tell the difference between a male and a female despite what clothes they may be wearing.

[anonymous-user]

George Smiley said:

Worldboss how did your date go?

I think it went well thanks.

I was a tad anxious, but I think he could see that and made me feel comfortable. No pressure, no awkwardness. Just getting to know someone over a coffee, it was nice.

He said that he wanted to show me around town sometime, so hopefully there will be a second .

[Noodle1982]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

rover 623gsi said:

I suspect that the vast majority of trans women do not look 'pass' as women. At best, they pass as a trans woman. At worst they pass as a bloke trying like a woman. I also suspect that most people who tell a trans woman that they look like a woman are doing so in order to be polite.

As I'm sure CC knows, the female body is very different to a male body in many ways other than just genitalia. For example, even if a male and female of the same height stood next to each other it would easy to tell them apart. The male will have larger feet and hands than the female. He will also have broader shoulders. The female will have longer legs, wider hips. There is a whole bunch of other stuff.. Males and females even have different elbow joints. All of these things mean that in 99% of cases it is pretty easy to tell the difference between a male and a female despite what clothes they may be wearing.

You suspect?

So what you actually mean is that you don't have a fking clue what you are talking about, and you're just talking ignorant prejudiced st. Quelle surprise.

I can't think of a single trans person that's in the public eye that convincingly looks like the gender they present as.

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

Noodle1982 said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

rover 623gsi said:

I suspect that the vast majority of trans women do not look 'pass' as women. At best, they pass as a trans woman. At worst they pass as a bloke trying like a woman. I also suspect that most people who tell a trans woman that they look like a woman are doing so in order to be polite.

As I'm sure CC knows, the female body is very different to a male body in many ways other than just genitalia. For example, even if a male and female of the same height stood next to each other it would easy to tell them apart. The male will have larger feet and hands than the female. He will also have broader shoulders. The female will have longer legs, wider hips. There is a whole bunch of other stuff.. Males and females even have different elbow joints. All of these things mean that in 99% of cases it is pretty easy to tell the difference between a male and a female despite what clothes they may be wearing.

You suspect?

So what you actually mean is that you don't have a fking clue what you are talking about, and you're just talking ignorant prejudiced st. Quelle surprise.

I can't think of a single trans person that's in the public eye that convincingly looks like the gender they present as.

Firstly, if someone is in the public eye then their identity and history is documented in great detail. If (say) they were born a man and changed sex you are in the full knowledge of that. Your brain is hard-wired to know this detail, your brain will always see a man.

Now if someone isn't in the public eye then how can you be so sure? Your eyes may well see shaven legs, boobs, make-up, all the traits of a female, and your brain may tell you 'female'. I had no suspicion of the two trans females I've ever known, before I was informed.

Sure you're going to get clumsy attempts, looking like Les Dawson in the old ladies sketches, but if someone had convinced you then how would you ever know otherwise?