The Gender Non-binary debate.

[Noodle1982]

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Now if someone isn't in the public eye then how can you be so sure?

I'd say the majority of the time you can. Granted there will be the odd few who slip the net but there are too many biological differences for the majority of trans folk to look convincing.

[Fermit and Sexy Sarah]

Noodle1982 said:

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

Now if someone isn't in the public eye then how can you be so sure?

I'd say the majority of the time you can. Granted there will be the odd few who slip the net but there are too many biological differences for the majority of trans folk to look convincing.

All I can say is that the two trans girls I've known had me duped. More than that, one of them caught my eye when I first saw her, when she bought me her her handbag to restore. She was tidy TBH.

[Dan_1981]

Nicole Gibson seems to scrub up alright.

I'd be 'fooled'

[rover 623gsi]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

rover 623gsi said:

I suspect that the vast majority of trans women do not look 'pass' as women. At best, they pass as a trans woman. At worst they pass as a bloke trying like a woman. I also suspect that most people who tell a trans woman that they look like a woman are doing so in order to be polite.

As I'm sure CC knows, the female body is very different to a male body in many ways other than just genitalia. For example, even if a male and female of the same height stood next to each other it would easy to tell them apart. The male will have larger feet and hands than the female. He will also have broader shoulders. The female will have longer legs, wider hips. There is a whole bunch of other stuff.. Males and females even have different elbow joints. All of these things mean that in 99% of cases it is pretty easy to tell the difference between a male and a female despite what clothes they may be wearing.

You suspect?

So what you actually mean is that you don't have a fking clue what you are talking about, and you're just talking ignorant prejudiced st. Quelle surprise.

I’ve seen enough of them to know that the only way 99% of them can pass as a woman is by dressing as a stereotypical woman.

A woman wearing jeans and a t-shirt will still look like a woman.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

So, really, we come back to the statement that radar operators see 99% of things that don't slip under the radar and don't have stealth technology. That's a very different statement than claiming they are able to see 99% of things that are trying to evade radar contact.

It's no coincidence that the term used for a trans women trying to pass as cis is "stealthing".

Edit: Reminds me of a quote I read somewhere. To paraphrase, "Trying to pass is a game where the moment someone can see that you are winning, you lose".

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Sunday 28th April 10:13

[SeeFive]

rover 623gsi said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

rover 623gsi said:

I suspect that the vast majority of trans women do not look 'pass' as women. At best, they pass as a trans woman. At worst they pass as a bloke trying like a woman. I also suspect that most people who tell a trans woman that they look like a woman are doing so in order to be polite.

As I'm sure CC knows, the female body is very different to a male body in many ways other than just genitalia. For example, even if a male and female of the same height stood next to each other it would easy to tell them apart. The male will have larger feet and hands than the female. He will also have broader shoulders. The female will have longer legs, wider hips. There is a whole bunch of other stuff.. Males and females even have different elbow joints. All of these things mean that in 99% of cases it is pretty easy to tell the difference between a male and a female despite what clothes they may be wearing.

You suspect?

So what you actually mean is that you don't have a fking clue what you are talking about, and you're just talking ignorant prejudiced st. Quelle surprise.

I’ve seen enough of them to know that the only way 99% of them can pass as a woman is by dressing as a stereotypical woman.

A woman wearing jeans and a t-shirt will still look like a woman.

I think we have probably all seen people who have difficulty in adopting their new gender’s physical characteristics convincingly for whatever reasons. I would caution people, don’t treat that as the be all and end all. There are probably many who are so successful that you don’t notice.

A Thai restaurant in Victoria used to run the Miss Transsexual (sorry can’t remember the actual title , but it was that sort of plain English back in the day - no offence meant) competiton, a beauty parade for people who were presenting as female.

You would be very hard pushed to recognise that the contestants were not cis female. In fact, I would suggest that the only way you could tell was that they were too damned pretty.

It certainly opened my eyes that there will obviously be those that successfully slip under the radar. In fact, I would suggest all of the contestants would have passed as cis, although admittedly their petite eastern frame and features, good use of make-up and quality clothing probably helped a lot. They certainly looked more feminine that the cis Chinese lady I was with!

I reckon George could have had a very bad night out that night and a lot of court cases later

[Scottish Wyldcat]

Rover 623gsi, Porkrind, and dangernoodle are obviously Xray specs of the Bash Street Kids.

[Scottish Wyldcat]

_dobbo_ said:

effkay said:

PorkRind said:

Just goes to Show a lot of this is attention seeking and a decline in Western society.

That escalated quickly

I tend to yell at clouds too, being an astronomer. They continue to exist despite my yelling. They are not going to go away.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

SeeFive said:

I think we have probably all seen people who have difficulty in adopting their new gender’s physical characteristics convincingly for whatever reasons. I would caution people, don’t treat that as the be all and end all. There are probably many who are so successful that you don’t notice.

Indeed. That was what I was alluding to.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Sunday 28th April 12:32

[Brads67]

Dan_1981 said:

Nicole Gibson seems to scrub up alright.

I'd be 'fooled'

Yes, you would be.

[98elise]

rover 623gsi said:

PorkRind said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

I just got called "sir" in Tesco Express today. I had been under the illusion (or, rather, delusion) that I looked pretty feminine.

I didn't have a rant, I didn't blow a gasket. I didn't even say anything. I just feel depressed now that I didn't pass as female.

That's the reality of being transgender, despite some of you thinking we're all screaming radicals intent on locking people up for hate speech.

*sighs*

Well maybe it's the hands and facial Structure need some Work To pass?

I suspect that the vast majority of trans women do not look 'pass' as women. At best, they pass as a trans woman. At worst they pass as a bloke trying like a woman. I also suspect that most people who tell a trans woman that they look like a woman are doing so in order to be polite.

As I'm sure CC knows, the female body is very different to a male body in many ways other than just genitalia. For example, even if a male and female of the same height stood next to each other it would easy to tell them apart. The male will have larger feet and hands than the female. He will also have broader shoulders. The female will have longer legs, wider hips. There is a whole bunch of other stuff.. Males and females even have different elbow joints. All of these things mean that in 99% of cases it is pretty easy to tell the difference between a male and a female despite what clothes they may be wearing.

And the problem that if the person is recognisably male, then they could either be transgender or transvestite to the person serving them. A transgender person would identify as female, but a transvestite would identify as male.

[George Smiley]

WorldBoss said:

George Smiley said:

Worldboss how did your date go?

I think it went well thanks.

I was a tad anxious, but I think he could see that and made me feel comfortable. No pressure, no awkwardness. Just getting to know someone over a coffee, it was nice.

He said that he wanted to show me around town sometime, so hopefully there will be a second .

Great news, to go back to the very original scenario of mine. Does he know your story?

Whatever hope it works out

[Clockwork Cupcake]

98elise said:

And the problem that if the person is recognisably male, then they could either be transgender or transvestite to the person serving them. A transgender person would identify as female, but a transvestite would identify as male.

I doubt any transvestite presenting as female would object to being called 'madam'.

If someone is presenting as female, it's safer to either assume female, or if there is any doubt then refrain from gender-specific greetings.

[Brads67]

Does someones right to present as a gender over ride someones right to recognise a gender ?

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Brads67 said:

Does someones right to present as a gender over ride someones right to recognise a gender ?

Does an employee's right to upset a customer override their employer's desire for the customer to spend money?

Or, outside of business, does being polite override the desire to be an arse?

[Brads67]

So if I call a man Mr because he is obviously a man, then he lets me know he prefers to be a female, I'm the arse ?

If someone asks to be called a martian, that's fine with me, but I'm confused as to why I would be in the wrong for stating the obvious.

[Davos123]

Brads67 said:

So if I call a man Mr because he is obviously a man, then he lets me know he prefers to be a female, I'm the arse ?

If someone asks to be called a martian, that's fine with me, but I'm confused as to why I would be in the wrong for stating the obvious.

To the first line - only if you continue to misgender them.

To the second, there are hundreds of pages here you can read to get a better understanding of why a trans woman is a woman.

[_dobbo_]

Brads67 said:

Does someones right to present as a gender over ride someones right to recognise a gender ?

If you see someone presenting as female but you recognise that they were originally a male, you have every right to call them "Sir" but you'll be an ahole for doing it. So why would you?


You have all sorts of "rights" and one of those is to choose not to be needlessly cruel to strangers.

[Brads67]

I'm never cruel to strangers so moot point.

Buty what if your belief is that someone cannot change gender. You have that right to think that way no ? so if you are saying something based on your belief then you are as much in the right as the next person.?

I can see why this thread went hundreds of pages.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Brads67 said:

I'm never cruel to strangers so moot point.

Buty what if your belief is that someone cannot change gender. You have that right to think that way no ? so if you are saying something based on your belief then you are as much in the right as the next person.?

I can see why this thread went hundreds of pages.

Well, one of the reasons this thread runs to hundreds of pages is that people keep asking the same questions again and again.

We've covered this many times already.

You meet someone who is clearly presenting as female and is introduced to you as female. Do you:
a) Play along with things out of politeness, despite your belief that they aren't really female.
b) Make a big song and dance about overriding their preference and deliberately use male pronouns for them because of your sense of 'right', even though this is contrary to their wishes?

It would be like you introducing yourself as Brad, and someone saying "You look more like a Doug to me" and then calling you Doug thereafter. It's kinda rude, no?