The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
ambuletz said:
Rivenink said:
ambuletz said:
The non binary thing annoys me now because of people at work.
There's a trans person, was a man, now a woman. fine, no issue there.
However there's a snowfake who sees themself as gender fluid. Genetically they are female, with a female name, but they see themselves as a guy sometimes. With people who she (i will call her she) speaks to often she has said to call her by her male name, if not she moans and complains to her manager. However everyone else that doesn't really speak to her she is perfectly fine being called by her female name. On many occasions she's referred to herself as her female name. It's really f
king annoying because it's almost a double standard, and makes it confusing. I would have no problem calling them by their new name if they told EVERYONE to call them by their new name, but they haven't. and even then, the people who know their new name have called her by her old name and she's not made an issue with it. it seems like she makes an issue about it whenever she feels like.
Another way to look at it; this person trusts you, respects you and likes you enough to invite you to deal with them on a level that is personal. There's a trans person, was a man, now a woman. fine, no issue there.
However there's a snowfake who sees themself as gender fluid. Genetically they are female, with a female name, but they see themselves as a guy sometimes. With people who she (i will call her she) speaks to often she has said to call her by her male name, if not she moans and complains to her manager. However everyone else that doesn't really speak to her she is perfectly fine being called by her female name. On many occasions she's referred to herself as her female name. It's really f
king annoying because it's almost a double standard, and makes it confusing. I would have no problem calling them by their new name if they told EVERYONE to call them by their new name, but they haven't. and even then, the people who know their new name have called her by her old name and she's not made an issue with it. it seems like she makes an issue about it whenever she feels like.Do you tell everything to strangers and mere acquaintances that you would you trusted close friends?
Is there aspects of your personality you don't normally reveal to strangers?
This person openly has Mx next to their name, and in all emails and correspondence. It's not like they keep it to people they only trust because they've told everyone in their work cell/group to call them by it. Even passively aggresively complaining to their supervisor that they aren't called them by that name. But they pick their moments when they want to whinge about it or not, if they feel like it they'll whinge to their supervisor.
Noodle1982 said:
ambuletz said:
Rivenink said:
ambuletz said:
The non binary thing annoys me now because of people at work.
There's a trans person, was a man, now a woman. fine, no issue there.
However there's a snowfake who sees themself as gender fluid. Genetically they are female, with a female name, but they see themselves as a guy sometimes. With people who she (i will call her she) speaks to often she has said to call her by her male name, if not she moans and complains to her manager. However everyone else that doesn't really speak to her she is perfectly fine being called by her female name. On many occasions she's referred to herself as her female name. It's really fking annoying because it's almost a double standard, and makes it confusing. I would have no problem calling them by their new name if they told EVERYONE to call them by their new name, but they haven't. and even then, the people who know their new name have called her by her old name and she's not made an issue with it. it seems like she makes an issue about it whenever she feels like.
Another way to look at it; this person trusts you, respects you and likes you enough to invite you to deal with them on a level that is personal. There's a trans person, was a man, now a woman. fine, no issue there.
However there's a snowfake who sees themself as gender fluid. Genetically they are female, with a female name, but they see themselves as a guy sometimes. With people who she (i will call her she) speaks to often she has said to call her by her male name, if not she moans and complains to her manager. However everyone else that doesn't really speak to her she is perfectly fine being called by her female name. On many occasions she's referred to herself as her female name. It's really f
king annoying because it's almost a double standard, and makes it confusing. I would have no problem calling them by their new name if they told EVERYONE to call them by their new name, but they haven't. and even then, the people who know their new name have called her by her old name and she's not made an issue with it. it seems like she makes an issue about it whenever she feels like.Do you tell everything to strangers and mere acquaintances that you would you trusted close friends?
Is there aspects of your personality you don't normally reveal to strangers?
This person openly has Mx next to their name, and in all emails and correspondence. It's not like they keep it to people they only trust because they've told everyone in their work cell/group to call them by it. Even passively aggresively complaining to their supervisor that they aren't called them by that name. But they pick their moments when they want to whinge about it or not, if they feel like it they'll whinge to their supervisor.
Kind of mirrors the experiences of those on this thread who have made it clear that the vast majority of cases where they are misgendered they just let slide with a deep breath and brave face. But situations where it matters and would make a meaningful difference to their lives is a different matter.
ambuletz said:
Rivenink said:
ambuletz said:
The non binary thing annoys me now because of people at work.
There's a trans person, was a man, now a woman. fine, no issue there.
However there's a snowfake who sees themself as gender fluid. Genetically they are female, with a female name, but they see themselves as a guy sometimes. With people who she (i will call her she) speaks to often she has said to call her by her male name, if not she moans and complains to her manager. However everyone else that doesn't really speak to her she is perfectly fine being called by her female name. On many occasions she's referred to herself as her female name. It's really fking annoying because it's almost a double standard, and makes it confusing. I would have no problem calling them by their new name if they told EVERYONE to call them by their new name, but they haven't. and even then, the people who know their new name have called her by her old name and she's not made an issue with it. it seems like she makes an issue about it whenever she feels like.
Another way to look at it; this person trusts you, respects you and likes you enough to invite you to deal with them on a level that is personal. There's a trans person, was a man, now a woman. fine, no issue there.
However there's a snowfake who sees themself as gender fluid. Genetically they are female, with a female name, but they see themselves as a guy sometimes. With people who she (i will call her she) speaks to often she has said to call her by her male name, if not she moans and complains to her manager. However everyone else that doesn't really speak to her she is perfectly fine being called by her female name. On many occasions she's referred to herself as her female name. It's really f
king annoying because it's almost a double standard, and makes it confusing. I would have no problem calling them by their new name if they told EVERYONE to call them by their new name, but they haven't. and even then, the people who know their new name have called her by her old name and she's not made an issue with it. it seems like she makes an issue about it whenever she feels like.Do you tell everything to strangers and mere acquaintances that you would you trusted close friends?
Is there aspects of your personality you don't normally reveal to strangers?
This person openly has Mx next to their name, and in all emails and correspondence. It's not like they keep it to people they only trust because they've told everyone in their work cell/group to call them by it. Even passively aggresively complaining to their supervisor that they aren't called them by that name. But they pick their moments when they want to whinge about it or not, if they feel like it they'll whinge to their supervisor.
I mean, are you/the people in your workplace immature children or just massive assholes?
Is there a good reason why you/your colleagues refuse to address them as they've asked you to?
Rivenink said:
I see... so people in your workplace/you constantly refuse to address them by their preferred name and pronouns, despite the fact that doing so costs literally nothing; you have to address them somehow after all; and you think its attention seeking because you're literally disrespecting them on purpose; and every so often they lose their patience with it?
I mean, are you/the people in your workplace immature children or just massive assholes?
Is there a good reason why you/your colleagues refuse to address them as they've asked you to?
I think the issue is that his colleague changes their name/pronouns on an inconsistent basis.I mean, are you/the people in your workplace immature children or just massive assholes?
Is there a good reason why you/your colleagues refuse to address them as they've asked you to?
j_4m said:
Rivenink said:
I see... so people in your workplace/you constantly refuse to address them by their preferred name and pronouns, despite the fact that doing so costs literally nothing; you have to address them somehow after all; and you think its attention seeking because you're literally disrespecting them on purpose; and every so often they lose their patience with it?
I mean, are you/the people in your workplace immature children or just massive assholes?
Is there a good reason why you/your colleagues refuse to address them as they've asked you to?
I think the issue is that his colleague changes their name/pronouns on an inconsistent basis.I mean, are you/the people in your workplace immature children or just massive assholes?
Is there a good reason why you/your colleagues refuse to address them as they've asked you to?
R Mutt said:
I get that people are in the wrong body, but changing from day to day must be more of a psychological condition. I can see why people are sceptical.
Even if it is a psychological condition, does that mean they should be called attention seekers? Disrespected? Discriminated against? Attacked? R Mutt said:
I get that people are in the wrong body, but changing from day to day must be more of a psychological condition. I can see why people are sceptical.
Not at all. If you own more than one car, and you decide to drive one on one day, and another on another day, are you being mental? Nope. Some days I get up and can't be arsed to put on my makeup, wig, bewbies, etc. and need to pop out to the shops for a pint of milk. Since I can't pass as female without my makeup, wig, etc., I pull on a t-shirt and jeans and present as male. I'm still female inside but to the outside world I look male and don't mind if people react to me as male. That doesn't make me attention-seeking, or mental, or anything. It's just me being lazy and passing as male as it is easier than putting on my makeup etc.
Edit: For a good analogy, I own a TVR Sagaris and a Golf R. And, to be completely honest, driving the Sagaris is a right pest and an effort, so I often just hop in the Golf especially when just popping out. And presenting as male is like the Golf (easy) and presenting as female is like the Sagaris (an effort).
I'd never present as male when meeting socially though - I'll always make the effort.
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Thursday 16th May 12:31
Rivenink said:
R Mutt said:
I get that people are in the wrong body, but changing from day to day must be more of a psychological condition. I can see why people are sceptical.
Even if it is a psychological condition, does that mean they should be called attention seekers? Disrespected? Discriminated against? Attacked? Clockwork Cupcake said:
Not at all. If you own more than one car, and you decide to drive one on one day, and another on another day, are you being mental? Nope.
Some days I get up and can't be arsed to put on my makeup, wig, bewbies, etc. and need to pop out to the shops for a pint of milk. Since I can't pass as female without my makeup, wig, etc., I pull on a t-shirt and jeans and present as male. I'm still female inside but to the outside world I look male and don't mind if people react to me as male. That doesn't make me attention-seeking, or mental, or anything. It's just me being lazy and passing as male as it is easier than putting on my makeup etc.
The girl in question doesn't attempt to pass as male, merely to be referred to as one. Are you going to confront the shopkeeper for not recognising you as female?Some days I get up and can't be arsed to put on my makeup, wig, bewbies, etc. and need to pop out to the shops for a pint of milk. Since I can't pass as female without my makeup, wig, etc., I pull on a t-shirt and jeans and present as male. I'm still female inside but to the outside world I look male and don't mind if people react to me as male. That doesn't make me attention-seeking, or mental, or anything. It's just me being lazy and passing as male as it is easier than putting on my makeup etc.
R Mutt said:
No but they shouldn't be calling HR because someone doesn't know what their name is on any given day
Well that is an issue for them as an individual, and something to be handled by HR, regardless of whether or not they are transgender. It rather feels like you are tarring all transgender people with the same brush because of the actions of one individual.
edit:
R Mutt said:
The girl in question doesn't attempt to pass as male, merely to be referred to as one. Are you going to confront the shopkeeper for not recognising you as female?
Of course I'm not. But, as I said, I rather think you are tarring all transgender people with the same brush due to the actions of this one person.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Not at all. If you own more than one car, and you decide to drive one on one day, and another on another day, are you being mental? Nope.
Some days I get up and can't be arsed to put on my makeup, wig, bewbies, etc. and need to pop out to the shops for a pint of milk. Since I can't pass as female without my makeup, wig, etc., I pull on a t-shirt and jeans and present as male. I'm still female inside but to the outside world I look male and don't mind if people react to me as male. That doesn't make me attention-seeking, or mental, or anything. It's just me being lazy and passing as male as it is easier than putting on my makeup etc.
Edit: For a good analogy, I own a TVR Sagaris and a Golf R. And, to be completely honest, driving the Sagaris is a right pest and an effort, so I often just hop in the Golf especially when just popping out. And presenting as male is like the Golf (easy) and presenting as female is like the Sagaris (an effort).
I'd never present as male when meeting socially though - I'll always make the effort.
But you've said previously in the thread that in your psyche you're a woman, so even if you present as a man your actual 'self' is still that of a woman. Hope I've got that right.Some days I get up and can't be arsed to put on my makeup, wig, bewbies, etc. and need to pop out to the shops for a pint of milk. Since I can't pass as female without my makeup, wig, etc., I pull on a t-shirt and jeans and present as male. I'm still female inside but to the outside world I look male and don't mind if people react to me as male. That doesn't make me attention-seeking, or mental, or anything. It's just me being lazy and passing as male as it is easier than putting on my makeup etc.
Edit: For a good analogy, I own a TVR Sagaris and a Golf R. And, to be completely honest, driving the Sagaris is a right pest and an effort, so I often just hop in the Golf especially when just popping out. And presenting as male is like the Golf (easy) and presenting as female is like the Sagaris (an effort).
I'd never present as male when meeting socially though - I'll always make the effort.
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Thursday 16th May 12:31
The contention here is that someone can flip that mental switch at the click of a finger, or exist in some quantum gender state. That to me is an affectation, which is fine in and of itself, but like most statements can irritate people.
j_4m said:
But you've said previously in the thread that in your psyche you're a woman, so even if you present as a man your actual 'self' is still that of a woman. Hope I've got that right.
The contention here is that someone can flip that mental switch at the click of a finger, or exist in some quantum gender state. That to me is an affectation, which is fine in and of itself, but like most statements can irritate people around you.
True. The contention here is that someone can flip that mental switch at the click of a finger, or exist in some quantum gender state. That to me is an affectation, which is fine in and of itself, but like most statements can irritate people around you.
The thing about genderfluid / bi-gender / whatever, is that it is acknowledgement of being neither one thing or the other. Just like being bisexual is being neither gay or straight. The limitation is that society on the whole recognises only a gender binary (male *or* female) which, when you don't fit either exactly, is a problem and causes people to flip between the two.
I don't really have a problem with it, although it does cause all sorts of linguistic confusion.
My advice to anyone who does this is to choose a gender-neutral name or nickname to reduce the confusion. It's one of the reasons I chose JJ as a nickname back when I was finding my feet and wasn't full-time. It reduced confusion enormously.
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Thursday 16th May 12:53
Noodle1982 said:
Agreed.
Dissociative identity disorder.
I know this is meant to be a sideways swipe, but I find it absolutely fascinating that you are completely comfortable with the idea that someone can have DID - which gender fluidity is not as it doesn't fit the criteria - but are unable or unwilling to accept that the gender fludity *aspect* of DID, which not everyone with DID suffers, could arise in isolation.Dissociative identity disorder.
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