The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
InitialDave said:
George Smiley said:
And a man cannot be a mother.
Where's that defined in law?Because if he's legally a man, and the court says he must be put down as the mother due to being the one who gave birth, that would affirm that yes, a man can be a mother.
It has had an enormously negative effect on the children's mental health - an issue which is not generally discussed.
NDA said:
I have a friend whose ex husband had a sex change.... they had children and he regards himself as their mother.
It has had an enormously negative effect on the children's mental health - an issue which is not generally discussed.
I have a friend whose biological father transitioned to female and my friend is in excellent mental health and says it has not phazed them at all. It has had an enormously negative effect on the children's mental health - an issue which is not generally discussed.
There are all sorts of things that affect the mental health of children. Divorce is going to be pretty high up on the list.
So, given that divorce can be incredibly stressful for children, how do you attribute the poor mental health of your friend's children on the ex-husband transitioning as opposed to the simple fact that there are now an ex-husband and presumably no longer together (I'm assuming you mean "ex husband, now divorced" as opposed to "ex husband, now wife").
InitialDave said:
Where's that defined in law?
Because if he's legally a man, and the court says he must be put down as the mother due to being the one who gave birth, that would affirm that yes, a man can be a mother.
Ipso Facto Because if he's legally a man, and the court says he must be put down as the mother due to being the one who gave birth, that would affirm that yes, a man can be a mother.
In fact, this actually establishes case law that a man can indeed be a mother.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
InitialDave said:
Where's that defined in law?
Because if he's legally a man, and the court says he must be put down as the mother due to being the one who gave birth, that would affirm that yes, a man can be a mother.
Ipso Facto Because if he's legally a man, and the court says he must be put down as the mother due to being the one who gave birth, that would affirm that yes, a man can be a mother.
In fact, this actually establishes case law that a man can indeed be a mother.
Mothersruin said:
Hmmm, man or male?
Interesting distinction. You may have a point. 
However, either way, the fact that a trans man is recorded as the biological mother based on the fact that they were the person with the womb as opposed to the person with the sperm, doesn't have a bearing on their legal status as a trans man.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
There are all sorts of things that affect the mental health of children. Divorce is going to be pretty high up on the list.
So, given that divorce can be incredibly stressful for children, how do you attribute the poor mental health of your friend's children on the ex-husband transitioning
From what the children say.So, given that divorce can be incredibly stressful for children, how do you attribute the poor mental health of your friend's children on the ex-husband transitioning
I wouldn't deny the right for anyone to be anything they want to be - but sometimes exercising these personal rights can have a huge impact on others and this is often ignored.
NDA said:
From what the children say.
I wouldn't deny the right for anyone to be anything they want to be - but sometimes exercising these personal rights can have a huge impact on others and this is often ignored.
Fair enough. It's a factor, for sure, but not a fair extrapolation. There can be many factors at play here, not least how educated the children are on the concept of transgenderism.I wouldn't deny the right for anyone to be anything they want to be - but sometimes exercising these personal rights can have a huge impact on others and this is often ignored.
I remember my sister saying something like "You can turn up at our house dressed as a woman if you want, but you have to explain it to the kids", and me thinking "How are the kids not actually already aware of the concept?"
As it turns out, my eldest niece had already worked it out because there was a transgender pupil at her school and she put two and two together. Smart cookie.
Likewise my best friend's kids are entirely 'meh' about the subject and I'm just Auntie Joanne to them. They literally couldn't care less what my birth gender is.
But, having said that, my step-son did say to me once that he is sad that he no longer has a dad figure in me but that he thinks me being happy in myself is of greater importance. Which was a nice, yet honest, thing to say I thought.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Let me tell you a little something about the perversity of law. I'm a freelancer running my own Limited Company, and as such am subject to a bit of legislation called IR35 which is to do with 'disguised employment'. That's where, if HMRC can prove that my work is caught by this legislation, they can treat me as if I was an employee of my client rather than in a business-to-business relationship and tax me accordingly. So, if that happened, you'd think that I could then go after my client and say "I want all the rights of employment please - holiday pay, sick pay, pension, etc". After all, HMRC have just proved that I'm an employee so therefore I am, right? Sadly not. I'd only be an employee for tax purposes but still self-employed (or, more correctly, employed by my own business) for the purposes of trying to gain employee benefits.
So, you see, even in law there is duality. So, in the same way, a trans man can give birth to a child because they have a working womb, but can still be a man. Because as I've just mentioned, establishing something for one purpose does not give an "if this then this" situation for something else. If it did then I would automatically get employee benefits from a client if HMRC said I was caught by IR35 and that is most definitely not the case.
I'm not sure that a tax law (which is itself wrong IMO) proves anything other than tax isn't fair.So, you see, even in law there is duality. So, in the same way, a trans man can give birth to a child because they have a working womb, but can still be a man. Because as I've just mentioned, establishing something for one purpose does not give an "if this then this" situation for something else. If it did then I would automatically get employee benefits from a client if HMRC said I was caught by IR35 and that is most definitely not the case.
It has zero influence on this debate
V8RX7 said:
I'm not sure that a tax law (which is itself wrong IMO) proves anything other than tax isn't fair.
It has zero influence on this debate
On the contrary, it has direct relevance. Noodle postulated that because this trans man had been declared by law to be the mother, then ergo it meant he was a woman. It has zero influence on this debate
I cited this tax law as a direct (and relevant) example as how the law can declare you one thing for one purpose and another for another, and that a legal definition for one purpose does not automatically mean the same definition for another.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
InitialDave said:
Where's that defined in law?
Because if he's legally a man, and the court says he must be put down as the mother due to being the one who gave birth, that would affirm that yes, a man can be a mother.
Ipso Facto Because if he's legally a man, and the court says he must be put down as the mother due to being the one who gave birth, that would affirm that yes, a man can be a mother.
In fact, this actually establishes case law that a man can indeed be a mother.
ked up children’s rights?Clockwork Cupcake said:
NDA said:
From what the children say.
I wouldn't deny the right for anyone to be anything they want to be - but sometimes exercising these personal rights can have a huge impact on others and this is often ignored.
Fair enough. It's a factor, for sure, but not a fair extrapolation. There can be many factors at play here, not least how educated the children are on the concept of transgenderism.I wouldn't deny the right for anyone to be anything they want to be - but sometimes exercising these personal rights can have a huge impact on others and this is often ignored.
I remember my sister saying something like "You can turn up at our house dressed as a woman if you want, but you have to explain it to the kids", and me thinking "How are the kids not actually already aware of the concept?"
As it turns out, my eldest niece had already worked it out because there was a transgender pupil at her school and she put two and two together. Smart cookie.
Likewise my best friend's kids are entirely 'meh' about the subject and I'm just Auntie Joanne to them. They literally couldn't care less what my birth gender is.
But, having said that, my step-son did say to me once that he is sad that he no longer has a dad figure in me but that he thinks me being happy in myself is of greater importance. Which was a nice, yet honest, thing to say I thought.
On the second bit in bold, I guess in a way he does still have that, just not entirely, you do after all still to "Dad" type stuff, still a petrolhead, still like F1, still like gaming etc, etc. Still an adjustment for him, but sill cool in that he still has someone he can look up to and enjoy doing stuff with.
I'm guessing he's now actually your ex step-son (for want of a better term). Great that you're still a part of his life IMO.
BlackLabel said:
The title of the article is extremely misleading."There is currently no data to reflect the number who may be unhappy in their new gender or who may opt to detransition to their biological sex."
BlackLabel said:
Detransitioning is now on the increase.
Small point but we don’t know that. The article states the same, the data is not collected.
If you look at research from elsewhere, it has never been the case that everyone who feels they are transgender or suffers from gender dysphoria goes on to transition (or is happy if they do).
I think it’s good this charity exists.
I follow this thread because no matter how much I try I can't get my head around some of the concepts here.
A biological male says he's not a man because he feels like his gender is female. But how does he know what it feels like to be female since he is in fact a male? In fact how does he know what it feels like to be anything other than what he is?
I can't say I feel like a forklift, for example, for obvious reasons.
That's not to say that we don't all have different personalities, likes, dislikes etc as men or women.
Does that not make sense?
A biological male says he's not a man because he feels like his gender is female. But how does he know what it feels like to be female since he is in fact a male? In fact how does he know what it feels like to be anything other than what he is?
I can't say I feel like a forklift, for example, for obvious reasons.
That's not to say that we don't all have different personalities, likes, dislikes etc as men or women.
Does that not make sense?
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