The Gender Non-binary debate.

[Driller]

For something that is so clear and felt so strongly to/for those involved, I was hoping someone could just answer in the context of my question which I have tried to ask as simply and clearly as possible.

[Noodle1982]

I saw this the other day on the exceptionally funny titania McGrath's Twitter....

Www.twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/117919929543...

Our favourite trans world champion cyclist Dr McKinnon now sees genital preference as transphobic.

[Randy Winkman]

I'd say we know it as far as we know anything about ourselves. Since I've only ever been me, how do I know anything? I'd say we know by seeing how we compare with others and fit-in with society.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Randy Winkman said:

I'd say we know it as far as we know anything about ourselves. Since I've only ever been me, how do I know anything? I'd say we know by seeing how we compare with others and fit-in with society.

Well, quite. If society has bombarded you since an early age with how men ought to behave, and how women ought to behave, and you have similarly grown up observing how men and women behave, it's not unreasonable to observe, compare, contrast, and conclude that you have far more in common, and a better fit, with female than you do with male.

In more general terms, how do you know whether you fit in with a group or not? How do you know whether you feel out of place or not? Well, you just do. Obviously.

[andy_s]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Randy Winkman said:

I'd say we know it as far as we know anything about ourselves. Since I've only ever been me, how do I know anything? I'd say we know by seeing how we compare with others and fit-in with society.

Well, quite. If society has bombarded you since an early age with how men ought to behave, and how women ought to behave, and you have similarly grown up observing how men and women behave, it's not unreasonable to observe, compare, contrast, and conclude that you have far more in common, and a better fit, with female than you do with male.

In more general terms, how do you know whether you fit in with a group or not? How do you know whether you feel out of place or not? Well, you just do. Obviously.

How men behave and how women behave are both very broad sets though, even in caricature or archtype; from the tom boy to the princess, from Aunt Lydia to Mother Theresa. There isn't a definitive set of characteristics except the physical, never more so than today. It also doesn't really explain why very young children are fast-tracked, surely an 8-12 year old hasn't picked up yet on the full range and nuance of possibility within their own sex, let alone fully cogniscent of what it actually means to be the opposite one.

There's a strange logic at play when we assert the difference between men and women is only a social construct and then decide to champion surgery to fit the very construct we criticize as being false.

[I'm not transphobe or anything, rather let and let live, but I do have serious misgivings with gender reassignment surgery for pre-pubescent youngsters].

[Noodle1982]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Randy Winkman said:

I'd say we know it as far as we know anything about ourselves. Since I've only ever been me, how do I know anything? I'd say we know by seeing how we compare with others and fit-in with society.

Well, quite. If society has bombarded you since an early age with how men ought to behave, and how women ought to behave, and you have similarly grown up observing how men and women behave, it's not unreasonable to observe, compare, contrast, and conclude that you have far more in common, and a better fit, with female than you do with male.

In more general terms, how do you know whether you fit in with a group or not? How do you know whether you feel out of place or not? Well, you just do. Obviously.

So what is it, are transgendered people born in the wrong body or are they convinced that they should be the opposite gender because society dictates it?

Take away all societal influences. Would transgender people exist?

[R Mutt]

Driller said:

I follow this thread because no matter how much I try I can't get my head around some of the concepts here.

A biological male says he's not a man because he feels like his gender is female. But how does he know what it feels like to be female since he is in fact a male? In fact how does he know what it feels like to be anything other than what he is?

That's one area of controversy where the only way someone can identify with the opposite sex is by attraction to their own sex, which ordinarily would mean they are homosexual but in the case of younger people, they are often inappropriately presented with the idea that they themselves may be the wrong gender.

[otolith]

andy_s said:

[I'm not transphobe or anything, rather let and let live, but I do have serious misgivings with gender reassignment surgery for pre-pubescent youngsters].

So does everybody, I would hope - it’s not allowed to happen here, don’t know whether there is anywhere it is allowed?

[andy_s]

otolith said:

andy_s said:

[I'm not transphobe or anything, rather let and let live, but I do have serious misgivings with gender reassignment surgery for pre-pubescent youngsters].

So does everybody, I would hope - it’s not allowed to happen here, don’t know whether there is anywhere it is allowed?

Well, the start of the process (puberty blockers, female hormone etc) to be more accurate [and less hyperbolic!].

[rxe]

Noodle1982 said:

So what is it, are transgendered people born in the wrong body or are they convinced that they should be the opposite gender because society dictates it?

Take away all societal influences. Would transgender people exist?

I remember asking a similar question about 150 pages back and it wasn’t answered. Imagine you lived in a society where people all wear the same style of clothes, all did the same jobs, and all were treated identically. No difference between people who were biologically male and female. Does the concept of transgenderism still exist, and if it does, what form does it take?

IMO there is a very big difference between thinking “I’ve been born in the wrong body” vs. ‘I don’t like the gendered role that society is imposing on me”.

[otolith]

andy_s said:

There's a strange logic at play when we assert the difference between men and women is only a social construct and then decide to champion surgery to fit the very construct we criticize as being false.

This is the contradiction which causes the schism over transgenderism within feminism. But contradictions are inevitable if you are from the sector of feminist thought with a dogma which isn’t rooted in reality.

So if you believe that gender is an entirely social construct, that the observable differences in how men and women think and behave are entirely learnt, you are going to struggle to accept the concept of someone having a female brain in a male body because you don’t believe there is such a thing. You’re also likely to tut at someone thinking that conformance with gender stereotypes is an important part of their identity. On the other hand, if you don’t believe that gender is in any way innate, why should you get your knickers in a twist over someone who says that their gender doesn’t match their genitalia?

To be honest, I have had a fair bit of amusement watching friends of gender critical feminist persuasions perform the mental gymnastics necessary for them to not be dicks about trans people.

[otolith]

andy_s said:

otolith said:

andy_s said:

[I'm not transphobe or anything, rather let and let live, but I do have serious misgivings with gender reassignment surgery for pre-pubescent youngsters].

So does everybody, I would hope - it’s not allowed to happen here, don’t know whether there is anywhere it is allowed?

Well, the start of the process (puberty blockers, female hormone etc) to be more accurate [and less hyperbolic!].

They’ll delay puberty, but they won’t do anything permanent (including cross sex hormones) until they’re old enough to make such choices. It’s not a desirable situation for anyone to be in, but I think I’m broadly ok with how we handle it medically.

[George Smiley]

Jo you say you know yourself but admit on occasion you’ll present as male. So how’s the world supposed to know?

[Driller]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Randy Winkman said:

I'd say we know it as far as we know anything about ourselves. Since I've only ever been me, how do I know anything? I'd say we know by seeing how we compare with others and fit-in with society.

Well, quite. If society has bombarded you since an early age with how men ought to behave, and how women ought to behave, and you have similarly grown up observing how men and women behave, it's not unreasonable to observe, compare, contrast, and conclude that you have far more in common, and a better fit, with female than you do with male.

In more general terms, how do you know whether you fit in with a group or not? How do you know whether you feel out of place or not? Well, you just do. Obviously.

None of that helped, it’s all just vague and wishy-washy

What do you mean  “we know it as far as we know anything about ourselves”? I’m not talking about what you know about yourself, I’m talking about what you don’t know about being someone else.

And about “fitting in with a group”, if I appreciate a person or persons, I’ll feel like spending time with them, male, female or whatever. I don’t see where changing yourself physically fits in with that, it’s another subject entirely.

Do people who listen to reggae music want to become Jamaican?

Help!

Edited by Driller on Sunday 6th October 12:10

[Davos123]

Driller said:

For something that is so clear and felt so strongly to/for those involved, I was hoping someone could just answer in the context of my question which I have tried to ask as simply and clearly as possible.

It's a question which requires the knowledge and understanding I have outlined. If you earnestly want to understand what I've suggested is best. Read and watch some Judith Butler to start.

[Driller]

See this just smacks of obfuscation which doesn’t help the situation at all. Why do you assume that I wouldn’t understand if you just explain it to me?

Yes, I really want to understand but I want to hear it from the horses mouth as it were (please excuse the phrase!).

[NoVetec]

otolith said:

This is the contradiction which causes the schism over transgenderism within feminism. But contradictions are inevitable if you are from the sector of feminist thought with a dogma which isn’t rooted in reality.

So if you believe that gender is an entirely social construct, that the observable differences in how men and women think and behave are entirely learnt, you are going to struggle to accept the concept of someone having a female brain in a male body because you don’t believe there is such a thing. You’re also likely to tut at someone thinking that conformance with gender stereotypes is an important part of their identity. On the other hand, if you don’t believe that gender is in any way innate, why should you get your knickers in a twist over someone who says that their gender doesn’t match their genitalia?

To be honest, I have had a fair bit of amusement watching friends of gender critical feminist persuasions perform the mental gymnastics necessary for them to not be dicks about trans people.

Not to ignore the rest of your post, just the final sentence I've bolded sums up the cognitive dissonance at play of those sorts of people. It is amusing, and quite thought-provoking at times.

George Smiley said:

Jo you say you know yourself but admit on occasion you’ll present as male. So how’s the world supposed to know?

Hasn't she covered that, more than once?

[8.4L 154]

NoVetec said:

otolith said:

This is the contradiction which causes the schism over transgenderism within feminism. But contradictions are inevitable if you are from the sector of feminist thought with a dogma which isn’t rooted in reality.

So if you believe that gender is an entirely social construct, that the observable differences in how men and women think and behave are entirely learnt, you are going to struggle to accept the concept of someone having a female brain in a male body because you don’t believe there is such a thing. You’re also likely to tut at someone thinking that conformance with gender stereotypes is an important part of their identity. On the other hand, if you don’t believe that gender is in any way innate, why should you get your knickers in a twist over someone who says that their gender doesn’t match their genitalia?

To be honest, I have had a fair bit of amusement watching friends of gender critical feminist persuasions perform the mental gymnastics necessary for them to not be dicks about trans people.

Not to ignore the rest of your post, just the final sentence I've bolded sums up the cognitive dissonance at play of those sorts of people. It is amusing, and quite thought-provoking at times.

Never seen a gender critical person who has been critical of any cisgender performance of gender or who has managed to be gender critical without performing gender themselves. Essentially gender critical is just trying to make transphobia sound respectable.

Edited by 8.4L 154 on Sunday 6th October 14:37

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Driller said:

Yes, I really want to understand but I want to hear it from the horses mouth as it were (please excuse the phrase!).

But you did, and you dismissed it.

I know that I fit into the societal role of 'female' better than 'male'. I can't give you scientific "proof" of this, but I can cite my own experience.

You know when you fit in and when you don't. This is a fundamental aspect of the human condition surely?

[8.4L 154]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Driller said:

Yes, I really want to understand but I want to hear it from the horses mouth as it were (please excuse the phrase!).

But you did, and you dismissed it.

I know that I fit into the societal role of 'female' better than 'male'. I can't give you scientific "proof" of this, but I can cite my own experience.

You know when you fit in and when you don't. This is a fundamental aspect of the human condition surely?

Its just a trap, any simple answer is dismissed and anything more complex (but still simplified) will just be met with criticism of use of stereotypes etc. Essentially its asking trans people to justify their identity, existence and experience when its not even possible to define their own identity within the standards required.

Ultimately the answer is a philosophical one of what is personal identity and that is something that has no answer.