The Gender Non-binary debate.

[feef]

Not clothing directly, but the fabric we retail comes in various colours, patterns and designs.

We have various design sets that are aimed at children, in various colours and with various designs. We have tractors, cars, aeroplanes, boats, animals, aliens, robots and more. Most of them come in various colours such that we do have pink robots and aliens for example.

It's not uncommon for a parent or grandparent to come in with a child to choose some fabric to make something for the child.

I'd say that on balance, about half of the time, the adult starts to dictate what the child should have. The young girl who is discouraged from choosing the robots and is directed to the butterflies. The boy who wants the fabric with fairies and fantasy imagery is directed towards the tractors and cars. It's really quite depressing to see how the kids are visibly ground down in front of our eyes, and end up leaving either with nothing or something they 'gave in' over rather than what they wanted.

Removing the stereotypes over kids stuff and what is a 'boy' or 'girl' item is a 'good thing' as it lets kids be kids.

[Ridgemont]

feef said:

Not clothing directly, but the fabric we retail comes in various colours, patterns and designs.

We have various design sets that are aimed at children, in various colours and with various designs. We have tractors, cars, aeroplanes, boats, animals, aliens, robots and more. Most of them come in various colours such that we do have pink robots and aliens for example.

It's not uncommon for a parent or grandparent to come in with a child to choose some fabric to make something for the child.

I'd say that on balance, about half of the time, the adult starts to dictate what the child should have. The young girl who is discouraged from choosing the robots and is directed to the butterflies. The boy who wants the fabric with fairies and fantasy imagery is directed towards the tractors and cars. It's really quite depressing to see how the kids are visibly ground down in front of our eyes, and end up leaving either with nothing or something they 'gave in' over rather than what they wanted.

Removing the stereotypes over kids stuff and what is a 'boy' or 'girl' item is a 'good thing' as it lets kids be kids.

All of which I agree with. Stereotyping is a stupid thing, though as I note above, the issue has always struck me as more of a 'girl' issue than infants generally. My infant happens to like trains, rockets and paw patrol. I suspect it impacts his creative development not a jot as he is also into pink playdough and glitter. If it was flowers and princess prints on tshirts I hardly would bat an eyelid. However the girls issue is that it is also about closing down future interests and also sexualisation. These are genuine problems *for girls*.

[pobs]

JagLover said:

I will leave you with what Alan Finch (who underwent a sex change) had to say on the matter.

Transsexualism was invented by psychiatrists.… You fundamentally can’t change sex.... The surgery doesn’t alter you genetically. It’s genital mutilation. My "vagina" was just the bag of my scrotum. It’s like a pouch, like a kangaroo. What’s scary is you still feel like you have a penis when you’re sexually aroused. It’s like phantom limb syndrome. It’s all been a terrible misadventure. I’ve never been a woman, just Alan.

Hello, sorry to jump in here but I wanted to add a couple of points that might help anyone else suffering with gender dysphoria (on PH of all places, who'd have thought!). The case of Alan Finch is unusual in a couple of important ways. Firstly, there is some anecdotal evidence that this person may have a chromosone disorder. This is perhaps why they felt a disonnance between their assigned gender and how they were perceived socially in the first place.Today this would be thought of as being intersex rather than an XX or XY transgender person.

Secondly and importantly, Alan Finch has openly stated that they "fudged" their way through the psychiatric assessments before being signed off for surgery. Pretty much all treatment for trans* people is patient lead. As with the wider population, all trans* people are different and a course of action that suits one won't necessarily suit another. Having been through the process from end to end myself I can assure you that there are numerous and stringent safety checks, disclaimers and criterias to be met before anything irreversible is done. Alan Finch represents a tiny minority of trans* people who experience regret after transition. A tiny minority which plales into insignificance when compared to the huge number of trans* or gender variant people who when unable to access treatment or support attempt self harm or succumb to suicide.

[Halb]

JagLover said:

Just to say many try and equate homosexuality with this modern fad of non-fixed genders and they are not the same thing at all.

Links have been posted here tht show it's not a 'modern fad.'
The last one was an Indonesian one?

[mike9009]

Transgender people are obviously conscious of their appearance. The first steps of moving their gender are conforming to the opposite genders visual appearance. By neutralising gender in clothing, surely this may cause more harm than good by not reaffirming a gender identity within people? (whether opposite to birth gender or not....) I suppose it does not consider the subset of gender neutral (but I am not sure who would be least affected, transgender or gender neutral??)

As you can probably tell, I struggle with these concepts, but I think a business should make decisions that it thinks are socially correct, but also ultimately for the benefit of the business. The proof of the pudding is whether the stance from John Lewis brings greater trade (ie positive acceptance of the move) or not......

[stevesingo]

Lance Catamaran said:

wisbech said:

stevesingo said:

Think about that for a while.

99% of society are expected to forgo what they see as their freedoms and social norms for no benefit to themselves of to the whole of a society all in order to please a minority?

I wonder if there any other examples of such?

I wonder if there examples of society's response to behaviours which are not in line with a society's socially accepted norms?

Guide Dogs for the blind. Society's socially accepted norms are to not let dogs into shops/ restaurants etc. Yet to please a very small minority, we force private businesses to accept guide dogs e.g. a minicab has to take a guide dog.

Largely, society's response is positive, with guide dog charities raising lots of cash.

Edited by wisbech on Monday 4th September 09:49

Except guide dogs are specifically trained to be as well behaved and non-intrusive as possible. A blind person can't just take any old dog into a shop or restaurant.

All in order to allow a less able bodied person live a life closer to socially accepted norms.

Not, to allow an able bodied person live a life in a manner that is further from socially acceptable norms.

[BJG1]

Murph7355 said:

However I'm reasonably sure a “boys 5-6“ is not the same size as a "girls 5-6". Inevitably there will be outliers intra-gender, but generally it helps finding the right size that bit more quickly (even if it is just a plain white t-shirt).

They are the same size. Girls and boys are the same height on average until 13.

[Murph7355]

BJG1 said:

They are the same size. Girls and boys are the same height on average until 13.

Depending where you buy from, their clothes can vary from 6-7.

[Randy Winkman]

Smiler. said:

Randy Winkman said:

In 50 years people will look back on 2017 and think that some of our attitudes were laughable.

That is the current reaction of sane people to the frothings of the PC brigade.

50 years ago most "sane" people had ideas on sexuality we now consider totally out of date. Should we have left everything as it was 50 years ago?

And in some countries most "sane" people have ideas on sexuality that many of us in the UK consider totally unacceptable. Is it good that they stick with those ideas?

Why are "social norms" in the UK in 2017 correct? It would be a bit odd if they were just right in this country at this point.

[Halb]

Ridgemont said:

jdw100 said:

However. I have enormous concerns about adults then coming out with the following tripe:

jdw100 said:

I can't believe that this John Lewis thing is even news. Let kids and/or parents pick what they like. Also, this pink and blue nonsense is a recent thing anyway, back in Victorian times it was the reverse and kids wore similar clothes up to a certain age.

No. No they didn't. The wealthy were able to provide ludicrously genderfied clothes. The middling and poor still also adhered to differences. As they have done through out most of modern history.




First up lets not start rewriting history to fit an agenda.

THat pic is post breeching?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)

[Ridgemont]

Halb said:

Ridgemont said:

jdw100 said:

However. I have enormous concerns about adults then coming out with the following tripe:

jdw100 said:

I can't believe that this John Lewis thing is even news. Let kids and/or parents pick what they like. Also, this pink and blue nonsense is a recent thing anyway, back in Victorian times it was the reverse and kids wore similar clothes up to a certain age.

No. No they didn't. The wealthy were able to provide ludicrously genderfied clothes. The middling and poor still also adhered to differences. As they have done through out most of modern history.




First up lets not start rewriting history to fit an agenda.

THat pic is post breeching?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)

Agreed - the thing with breeching is that it was essentially the equivalent of the baby grow, though the age varied. I believed we were talking about infants up to puberty before the sizes vary?

[WCZ]

my question is how many more people are gay compared to 50 years ago?
I walked past Pride here in Manchester recently and couldn't believe just how busy it was!

[Randy Winkman]

WCZ said:

my question is how many more people are gay compared to 50 years ago?
I walked past Pride here in Manchester recently and couldn't believe just how busy it was!

My guess is that the same number are gay now as 50 years ago.

Do you have to be gay to join in with Pride?

[otolith]

Randy Winkman said:

My guess is that the same number are gay now as 50 years ago.

My guess is that a lot more are.

(But probably the same proportion)

[ZedLeg]

You'll probably notice more gay people walking around now than 50 years ago, what with the fear of prosecution they had back then.

[WCZ]

Randy Winkman said:

Do you have to be gay to join in with Pride?

nothing stops you but I was under the impression it was celebrating pride in being gay and the culture surrounding it

[otolith]

You don't have to be of Afro-Caribbean descent to attend the Notting Hill Carnival.

[Goaty Bill 2]

WCZ said:

Randy Winkman said:

Do you have to be gay to join in with Pride?

nothing stops you but I was under the impression it was celebrating pride in being gay and the culture surrounding it

I had quite a number of straight friends that would accompany gay friends to Pride in the earlier days of the event.
Making up the numbers and for moral support / solidarity as I understood it.

Just my impression mind you, but given that there are no legal ways to discriminate against LGBT(etc.) people these days, and from comments by friends that do attend, it sounds more like an excuse for a big party these days.

It gets quite political in the US and Canada though.
Jewish lesbians told to get rid of their flags/banners incorporating the star of David (a blow to intersectionality);
Police officers refused on the basis that they were wearing their uniforms while obviously participating rather than being on duty;
being two incidents that I recall reading about.

There are various angles / arguments on each of these events/incidents. I just provided links as references, you may choose your own reading and opinion of course.

[WCZ]

otolith said:

You don't have to be of Afro-Caribbean descent to attend the Notting Hill Carnival.

I don't really know anything about notting hill carnival, I've been disallowed entry into a couple of places on canal street in manchester though when I was younger for 'not being gay' which is absolutely fair enough tbh

Just presumed that most people at gay pride were gay

[BJG1]

WCZ said:

Randy Winkman said:

Do you have to be gay to join in with Pride?

nothing stops you but I was under the impression it was celebrating pride in being gay and the culture surrounding it

Go to one and you'll see it's full of people off all different persuasions. Fantastic events, doesn't matter if you're straight, gay, bi or anywhere in between - just a load of people showing their support for equality.