The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
Clockwork Cupcake said:
As I said, I've been there and experienced it.
I may have expressed it rather brusquely, and for that I apologise, but it really can feel very hurtful when you come out and you are rejected / rebuffed. And doggedly refusing to modify the pronouns used is a continual confirmation that the person has not accepted you.
It may feel like not a big deal, but I can assure you it is.
He's discussing it with a few people on the internet. Maybe have some consideration for his feelings too.I may have expressed it rather brusquely, and for that I apologise, but it really can feel very hurtful when you come out and you are rejected / rebuffed. And doggedly refusing to modify the pronouns used is a continual confirmation that the person has not accepted you.
It may feel like not a big deal, but I can assure you it is.
Oakey said:
Did my brother nominate you personally to be his f
king spokesperson or did you decide to speak on their behalf of your own accord?
I decided to share my own experiences of being a trans woman coming out to her family, and the reactions that I received. And what I found to be accepting and what I found to be hurtful. And to share them with you in the context of what you freely chose to write on a public forum. king spokesperson or did you decide to speak on their behalf of your own accord?Which is fine but it feels like you're throwing shade because I haven't changed my entire mindset instantaneously. I only found out precisely 18 hours ago and I'm still not entirely sure where he's at yet. He's not told our father and said he probably won't for another few months and from what our mum said he's taking this slowly so I honestly don't know what his preference is currently.
Oakey said:
Which is fine but it feels like you're throwing shade because I haven't changed my entire mindset instantaneously. I only found out precisely 18 hours ago and I'm still not entirely sure where he's at yet. He's not told our father and said he probably won't for another few months and from what our mum said he's taking this slowly so I honestly don't know what his preference is currently.
Ok, Fair enough. I'm sorry I went in all guns blazing, although it was in response to you telling me to "get a grip FFS" which kind of set me off a bit. Sorry about that.
I just wanted you to know that the pronouns really make a huge difference to how accepted a trans person feels. I'd gently urge you to find out ASAP, and in the meantime perhaps use "they" and "their" for now rather than continuing to use "he" and "him". I realise that it probably seems trivial and silly, but I promise you it makes a big difference.
Peace
Oakey said:
Like I said, this isn't something he's been harbouring since he was a child. There are no examples form his childhood to be cited. This is something that's occurred over the last 5-10 years ish? He's been cross dressing for a while now apparently. He's been living in another city for ten years so it's not something we'd pick up on.
Not trans, but not unusual for people's sexuality to come out later in life and no one else has any idea until that point.It sounds trite but it's not called 'coming out' for nothing, these are closely guarded secrets.
Keep opens lines of communication and I am sure you will learn more.
I'm fully aware of these things but as far as I know he hasn't told anyone back here yet besides immediate family so I suspect it's just business as usual until they've had the time to tell people themselves. I doubt they're going to appreciate me accidentally referring to them in the female tense to our father before they've had the chance to tell him personally (or anyone else for that matter).
I absolutely agree with CC that pronouns can be the most hurtful thing that cuts to the core and receiving the wrong one can be devastating. I can not under emphasise that. But it also takes time for those close to us and its perfectly reasonable to give that time to a point.
In my case it was a couple of years for my father to fully get things right and i didn't loose my rag with him once, Some pointed comments were had towards the end but finally the key was fully coming out about me with his friends and people that worked in his apartment building. Once he only had to worry about one set of pronouns it made it so much easier for him. So I get the not wanting to out her to your father type situation as that is also a terribly firefighting and harmful thing to do to an newly out trans person. Again in my situation I only had to tell one neighbour and although they swore to confidentiality they had told the next neighbour before i had a chance, which was later that week and i never got that chance or really got to speak to them again as they were the first to stop speaking.
Likewise my SIL who works with some mutual acquaintance didn't feel its was something I might want to keep private given i no longer had anything to do with the ex work colleague who i didn't really get on that well with when i worked with them, I was not terribly happy about that but kept it to myself (and my partner) despite it eating away at me a little bit. So again I cant stress enough let her have her space to tell people at her own speed, but be there for her and do your best to use the right pronouns for her. Do not make a scene about it if you get it wrong out in public, just quietly apologise later in private. There is nothing like confirming a wrong pronoun by making a scene apologising and a do over when the third party likely just though they misheard or didn't even notice.
Just do your best but don't take too long about it, your sister is going through a lot at the moment but so are the family
In my case it was a couple of years for my father to fully get things right and i didn't loose my rag with him once, Some pointed comments were had towards the end but finally the key was fully coming out about me with his friends and people that worked in his apartment building. Once he only had to worry about one set of pronouns it made it so much easier for him. So I get the not wanting to out her to your father type situation as that is also a terribly firefighting and harmful thing to do to an newly out trans person. Again in my situation I only had to tell one neighbour and although they swore to confidentiality they had told the next neighbour before i had a chance, which was later that week and i never got that chance or really got to speak to them again as they were the first to stop speaking.
Likewise my SIL who works with some mutual acquaintance didn't feel its was something I might want to keep private given i no longer had anything to do with the ex work colleague who i didn't really get on that well with when i worked with them, I was not terribly happy about that but kept it to myself (and my partner) despite it eating away at me a little bit. So again I cant stress enough let her have her space to tell people at her own speed, but be there for her and do your best to use the right pronouns for her. Do not make a scene about it if you get it wrong out in public, just quietly apologise later in private. There is nothing like confirming a wrong pronoun by making a scene apologising and a do over when the third party likely just though they misheard or didn't even notice.
Just do your best but don't take too long about it, your sister is going through a lot at the moment but so are the family
Edited by p2c on Tuesday 3rd March 16:49
Oakey said:
I'm fully aware of these things but as far as I know he hasn't told anyone back here yet besides immediate family so I suspect it's just business as usual until they've had the time to tell people themselves. I doubt they're going to appreciate me accidentally referring to them in the female tense to our father before they've had the chance to tell him personally (or anyone else for that matter).
Ah that's a fair point. It's a difficult one. Yes, I had that situation too when, as p2c also mentioned, word tends to spread.
In my case, my spouse (at the time, now ex-spouse) decided to "out" me in negative terms to all our mutual friends both verbally and on Facebook. And, to add insult to injury, made out they were doing it to be honest and honourable, when in actual fact quite the reverse was true. That's when you find out who your friends really are.
But I digress.
Anyway, it will be a difficult and confusing time for everyone. I genuinely wish you (and your sibling, and your family) all the best.
8.4L 154 said:
George Smiley said:
8.4L 154 said:
George Smiley said:
8.4L 154 said:
gregs656 said:
Seems like a weird one. In the article she says she would say (and it doesn’t suggest she was lying at the time) that the help she was receiving was helping her with suicidal thoughts, and that at the time she felt like she was going down the correct path and wouldn’t have listened to contrary advice.
Bit difficult to now say her situation should have been handled differently, essentially she is saying her drs shouldn’t have taken seriously about her suicidal thoughts or really anything that was part of her assessment.
That doesn’t seem realistic to me.
We know there is a distinction between gender dysphoria and being transgender, these cases highlight that.
As some one else said, no winners here - not until we are better at distinguishing gender dysphoria from being transgender.
The goal of the anti trans campaigners is to stop all treatment. they will consider that a win if they overturn Gillick competence in trans health care and maybe wider sexual health and contraceptive care for minorsBit difficult to now say her situation should have been handled differently, essentially she is saying her drs shouldn’t have taken seriously about her suicidal thoughts or really anything that was part of her assessment.
That doesn’t seem realistic to me.
We know there is a distinction between gender dysphoria and being transgender, these cases highlight that.
As some one else said, no winners here - not until we are better at distinguishing gender dysphoria from being transgender.
You can consent to medical treatment at age 16 along with joining the army, consenting to sex and riding a moped, (not all at the same time)
I think there’s a lot of genuine cases out there and now with internet propaganda and societal agendas, a whole lot more that are just confused.
p2c said:
I kept it to myself for decades, not one person saw it coming when i came out. It took those multiple decades to accept it myself even though i knew from a very young age.
Biggest issue with my nephew and nieces were my nephew was sad he wouldn't get to play games and techy toys with me, reassuring him that wouldn't be a problem cheered him up and resolved the problem. its better not to view it as lost and gained but more like she is the same person just changing, we all change over time anyway.
It might not be better for the transgender person to think of it as lost / gained but if after 20 years my daughter said she was now Eric, grew a beard and lost her feminine looks (due to gender/dna) I’d be really upset as effectively the daughter is gone, it’s a different person and my memories are of someone else. Biggest issue with my nephew and nieces were my nephew was sad he wouldn't get to play games and techy toys with me, reassuring him that wouldn't be a problem cheered him up and resolved the problem. its better not to view it as lost and gained but more like she is the same person just changing, we all change over time anyway.
I’d be really upset. Does that mean you or anyone should pander to others feelings? Not at all but we would be entitled to feel grief.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Oakey said:
Like I said, this isn't something he's been harbouring since he was a child. There are no examples form his childhood to be cited. This is something that's occurred over the last 5-10 years ish? He's been cross dressing for a while now apparently.
Yeah, 5-10 years certainly is "out of nowhere" isn't it. 
Clockwork Cupcake said:
It's not even been 24 hours since I found out ffs, get a grip.
I think you're the one who needs to get a grip, and consider how hurtful it is to deliberately misgender someone. 5 to ten years in the scheme of an entire childhood, adolescence and formative adulthood is relatively left field
I predict mental issues and confusion and ten years after transition some regret, sorry okey there’s more at play
Why would a man who likes women want to become a woman to be with women whilst sacrificing the one natural gift of pleasure he’s packing?
p2c said:
I absolutely agree with CC that pronouns can be the most hurtful thing that cuts to the core and receiving the wrong one can be devastating. I can not under emphasise that. But it also takes time for those close to us and its perfectly reasonable to give that time to a point.
In my case it was a couple of years for my father to fully get things right and i didn't loose my rag with him once, Some pointed comments were had towards the end but finally the key was fully coming out about me with his friends and people that worked in his apartment building. Once he only had to worry about one set of pronouns it made it so much easier for him. So I get the not wanting to out her to your father type situation as that is also a terribly firefighting and harmful thing to do to an newly out trans person. Again in my situation I only had to tell one neighbour and although they swore to confidentiality they had told the next neighbour before i had a chance, which was later that week and i never got that chance or really got to speak to them again as they were the first to stop speaking.
Likewise my SIL who works with some mutual acquaintance didn't feel its was something I might want to keep private given i no longer had anything to do with the ex work colleague who i didn't really get on that well with when i worked with them, I was not terribly happy about that but kept it to myself (and my partner) despite it eating away at me a little bit. So again I cant stress enough let her have her space to tell people at her own speed, but be there for her and do your best to use the right pronouns for her. Do not make a scene about it if you get it wrong out in public, just quietly apologise later in private. There is nothing like confirming a wrong pronoun by making a scene apologising and a do over when the third party likely just though they misheard or didn't even notice.
Just do your best but don't take too long about it, your sister is going through a lot at the moment but so are the family
With respect, it'll take as long as it takes.In my case it was a couple of years for my father to fully get things right and i didn't loose my rag with him once, Some pointed comments were had towards the end but finally the key was fully coming out about me with his friends and people that worked in his apartment building. Once he only had to worry about one set of pronouns it made it so much easier for him. So I get the not wanting to out her to your father type situation as that is also a terribly firefighting and harmful thing to do to an newly out trans person. Again in my situation I only had to tell one neighbour and although they swore to confidentiality they had told the next neighbour before i had a chance, which was later that week and i never got that chance or really got to speak to them again as they were the first to stop speaking.
Likewise my SIL who works with some mutual acquaintance didn't feel its was something I might want to keep private given i no longer had anything to do with the ex work colleague who i didn't really get on that well with when i worked with them, I was not terribly happy about that but kept it to myself (and my partner) despite it eating away at me a little bit. So again I cant stress enough let her have her space to tell people at her own speed, but be there for her and do your best to use the right pronouns for her. Do not make a scene about it if you get it wrong out in public, just quietly apologise later in private. There is nothing like confirming a wrong pronoun by making a scene apologising and a do over when the third party likely just though they misheard or didn't even notice.
Just do your best but don't take too long about it, your sister is going through a lot at the moment but so are the family
Edited by p2c on Tuesday 3rd March 16:49
Social conditioning is as you know a powerful thing, and it cuts through in all directions.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Oakey said:
Like I said, this isn't something he's been harbouring since he was a child. There are no examples form his childhood to be cited. This is something that's occurred over the last 5-10 years ish? He's been cross dressing for a while now apparently.
Yeah, 5-10 years certainly is "out of nowhere" isn't it. Clockwork Cupcake said:
It's not even been 24 hours since I found out ffs, get a grip.
I think you're the one who needs to get a grip, and consider how hurtful it is to deliberately misgender someone. k the fk off, you don’t go from calling someone him for a lifetime to she overnightGeorge Smiley said:
I’d be really upset. Does that mean you or anyone should pander to others feelings? Not at all but we would be entitled to feel grief.
I'm about to have a Son. If some point in the future he told me he was trans I'd be devastated. Despite holding some views which I'm sure many people on here would proclaim to be trans phobic I don't hold any Ill will towards trans people, we're all just here trying to make our best lives.
It does seem sometimes, particularly when it's portrayed in the media that it's perfectly ok for a trans person to not accept who they are but everyone else has to be able to accept them pretty suddenly.
I just know I'd struggle if it was one of my children.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Ah that's a fair point. It's a difficult one.
Yes, I had that situation too when, as p2c also mentioned, word tends to spread.
In my case, my spouse (at the time, now ex-spouse) decided to "out" me in negative terms to all our mutual friends both verbally and on Facebook. And, to add insult to injury, made out they were doing it to be honest and honourable, when in actual fact quite the reverse was true. That's when you find out who your friends really are.
But I digress.
Anyway, it will be a difficult and confusing time for everyone. I genuinely wish you (and your sibling, and your family) all the best.
You’ve demonised your Ex a few times. Yes, I had that situation too when, as p2c also mentioned, word tends to spread.
In my case, my spouse (at the time, now ex-spouse) decided to "out" me in negative terms to all our mutual friends both verbally and on Facebook. And, to add insult to injury, made out they were doing it to be honest and honourable, when in actual fact quite the reverse was true. That's when you find out who your friends really are.
But I digress.
Anyway, it will be a difficult and confusing time for everyone. I genuinely wish you (and your sibling, and your family) all the best.
Put yourself on her shoes and the love of her life says they are transitioning. It’s as if she’s been giving her emotions and life to a lie, she was entitled to be hurt and people do rash things when triggered(look at your pronoun rant above)
It’s not fair to demonise her or to suggest the struggle your parents have is some bad reflection on them
George Smiley said:
8.4L 154 said:
George Smiley said:
8.4L 154 said:
George Smiley said:
8.4L 154 said:
gregs656 said:
Seems like a weird one. In the article she says she would say (and it doesn’t suggest she was lying at the time) that the help she was receiving was helping her with suicidal thoughts, and that at the time she felt like she was going down the correct path and wouldn’t have listened to contrary advice.
Bit difficult to now say her situation should have been handled differently, essentially she is saying her drs shouldn’t have taken seriously about her suicidal thoughts or really anything that was part of her assessment.
That doesn’t seem realistic to me.
We know there is a distinction between gender dysphoria and being transgender, these cases highlight that.
As some one else said, no winners here - not until we are better at distinguishing gender dysphoria from being transgender.
The goal of the anti trans campaigners is to stop all treatment. they will consider that a win if they overturn Gillick competence in trans health care and maybe wider sexual health and contraceptive care for minorsBit difficult to now say her situation should have been handled differently, essentially she is saying her drs shouldn’t have taken seriously about her suicidal thoughts or really anything that was part of her assessment.
That doesn’t seem realistic to me.
We know there is a distinction between gender dysphoria and being transgender, these cases highlight that.
As some one else said, no winners here - not until we are better at distinguishing gender dysphoria from being transgender.
You can consent to medical treatment at age 16 along with joining the army, consenting to sex and riding a moped, (not all at the same time)
I think there’s a lot of genuine cases out there and now with internet propaganda and societal agendas, a whole lot more that are just confused.
GIDS FOI requests have indicated despite something like 2500 new referrals last year only about 300 started blockers. And to put things into the correct context with a UK kids population of 12 million that is a tiny number in relation and well below the trans population expectations.
Also see other comments on this thread about trans people coming out unexpectedly despite their own stories being vastly different to those of family
ChocolateFrog said:
I'm about to have a Son. If some point in the future he told me he was trans I'd be devastated.
Despite holding some views which I'm sure many people on here would proclaim to be trans phobic I don't hold any Ill will towards trans people, we're all just here trying to make our best lives.
It does seem sometimes, particularly when it's portrayed in the media that it's perfectly ok for a trans person to not accept who they are but everyone else has to be able to accept them pretty suddenly.
I just know I'd struggle if it was one of my children.
Precisely. My not wanting my daughter to transition (ever) will be construed as trans phobic whilst ignoring the fact I support people’s choice, just don’t want my daughter to do that. Despite holding some views which I'm sure many people on here would proclaim to be trans phobic I don't hold any Ill will towards trans people, we're all just here trying to make our best lives.
It does seem sometimes, particularly when it's portrayed in the media that it's perfectly ok for a trans person to not accept who they are but everyone else has to be able to accept them pretty suddenly.
I just know I'd struggle if it was one of my children.
Nothing wrong in that.
I actually work with a m2f trans lady. I treat her exactly as I would any other lady. Despite not looking feminine (you can spot a mile off) it’s not once been an issue not should it be.
There’s no sniggering behind her back, there’s no chat about her previous gender, yet I’m trans phobic if I say I’d want a fully transition woman to at least inform me she used to be a man prior to sex.
George Smiley said:
Oh fk the fk off, you don’t go from calling someone him for a lifetime to she overnight
George... please don't work your way through a thread replying to each and every post as you read it. If you'd brought yourself up to date with the thread and then crafted a reply with the full picture, you'd see that I have already apologised for going in all guns blazing. k the fk off, you don’t go from calling someone him for a lifetime to she overnight8.4L 154 said:
You don't own your children. They will be who they are and a parents job is to love them no matter what they are dealt. You have no right to a son or daughter or to keep them as a son or daughter.
Assuming that's aimed my way, nowhere did I say that's the case.Doesn't change how I would feel about it.
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