The Gender Non-binary debate.

[anonymous-user]

What has changed recently from transvestism/agp and transsexualism to transgender? Eddie izzard is a case in point.

[Gecko1978]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

rover 623gsi said:

do you have a view on male rapists being incarcerated in women's prisons?

I have a view that you love to deluge these threads with "What About If"-isms to continue your well-documented transphobia that has had you banned from these threads several times now.

I have a view which I am going to guess aligns with Joanne's view (clockwork cupcake). Simply rapists are evil sick fks who will lie an cajole to get to victims. This has f all to do with being trans and simply down to a dangerous individual being in general population in a prison. So just to be clear a trans women can be in a women gaol. If she is a danger to other inmates put her in segregation.

Is that simple enough for you.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Iwantafusca said:

What has changed recently from transvestism/agp and transsexualism to transgender? Eddie izzard is a case in point.

What has changed? Eddie Izzard has changed.

For years he maintained that he was just a transvestite - "Un Transvesteet Execyouteeev" (he does love to throw French into his act) - but in recent years has realised that maybe, yes, it is more than just clothes for him.

[George Smiley]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Iwantafusca said:

What has changed recently from transvestism/agp and transsexualism to transgender? Eddie izzard is a case in point.

What has changed? Eddie Izzard has changed.

For years he maintained that he was just a transvestite - "Un Transvesteet Execyouteeev" (he does love to throw French into his act) - but in recent years has realised that maybe, yes, it is more than just clothes for him.

Is that the correct pronoun?

[Bacon Is Proof]

George Smiley said:

Astacus said:

George Smiley said:

Whatever happened to nolar? She was lovely but had a chequered past pre transition. By lovely I mean Jamie lee Curtis lovely

I think she got banned. Possibly for having multiple logins running at the same time. Was quite a while ago

Thats a shame.

Nolar created male personas that would then publicly declare their attraction to her.
Some serious mental health issues there.
Very open and blunt about the physical aspects of surgery, which was very educational (and eye-watering!).

[Clockwork Cupcake]

George Smiley said:

Is that the correct pronoun?

Ah, good point. Apologies. I should, of course, have checked if Eddie had clarified which to use since coming out as transgender.

A quick google is inconclusive. When awarded an honorary degree last year, they asked for female pronouns on the certificate, yet other reports say that they've said that either 'he' or 'she' is fine on several occasions.

[Oakey]

A literal minefield

[anonymous-user]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

What has changed? Eddie Izzard has changed.

For years he maintained that he was just a transvestite - "Un Transvesteet Execyouteeev" (he does love to throw French into his act) - but in recent years has realised that maybe, yes, it is more than just clothes for him.

Would it be cynical to think he saw which way the wind was blowing ? TVs are so last century!

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Oakey said:

A literal minefield

Indeed.

I think that really it just proves that the English language is not currently equipped to deal with this.

Some people think that people should conform to the current language, whilst others feel the language should evolve to accommodate new requirements (as language always does, eventually).

Naturally I tend towards the latter, and I'm sure that eventually language will catch up.

A great case in point is the use of "Ms". I remember the outcry and gnashing of teeth, and thousands of column inches in the media about it, when it was first used and gradually adopted. These days it doesn't so much as cause the bat of an eyelid and even the Daily Mail use it now.

News reports of Priti Patel, for example, regularly refer to her as "Ms. Patel" and nobody is asking what is wrong with "Miss" or "Mrs" and why we need "Ms".

[Bacon Is Proof]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

I think that really it just proves that the English language is not currently equipped to deal with this.

This raises a more general point:
People are fighting for perfect solutions that simply don't exist.
That'll never end well.

[R Mutt]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Indeed.

I think that really it just proves that the English language is not currently equipped to deal with this.

Some people think that people should conform to the current language, whilst others feel the language should evolve to accommodate new requirements (as language always does, eventually).

Naturally I tend towards the latter, and I'm sure that eventually language will catch up.

A great case in point is the use of "Ms". I remember the outcry and gnashing of teeth, and thousands of column inches in the media about it, when it was first used and gradually adopted. These days it doesn't so much as cause the bat of an eyelid and even the Daily Mail use it now.

News reports of Priti Patel, for example, regularly refer to her as "Ms. Patel" and nobody is asking what is wrong with "Miss" or "Mrs" and why we need "Ms".

Of course her marital status is irrelevant, but then she's unlikely to start using the opposite.

[Oakey]

I'm not sure it's language that's the problem but the expectation to know or remember every individuals personal preference or you make assumptions and risk causing offence.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Oakey said:

I'm not sure it's language that's the problem but the expectation to know or remember every individuals personal preference or you make assumptions and risk causing offence.

Well, you could say the same about "Miss" and "Mrs"... why should you have to remember their marital status when it's not relevant? So we developed "Ms".

In the same way, I think we'll see the gradual adoption of gender-neutral pronouns.

That's if we haven't blown up / poisoned the whole world and we're all still around, of course.

[_dobbo_]

George Smiley said:

Astacus said:

George Smiley said:

Whatever happened to nolar? She was lovely but had a chequered past pre transition. By lovely I mean Jamie lee Curtis lovely

I think she got banned. Possibly for having multiple logins running at the same time. Was quite a while ago

Thats a shame.

Nearly 10 years. I guess George Smiley must have changed identity some time between then and this new profile. I wonder why?

[_dobbo_]

George Smiley said:

If she has a new voice, face, physique, penis - are you suggesting any parent would be overjoyed and not see it as a sort of death?

My view is different to yours, doesn’t make it less valid or mean the feelings I would have would be wrong.

I have two sons. My overwhelming preference is that they be healthy and happy. If that means transitioning of course I would be overjoyed, because they would be doing something to make themselves happier.

You say you have a daughter and you would see her transitioning as a sort of death, she would become a stranger.

Would you prefer your daughter to continue to live an unhappy life to spare your feelings?

[gizlaroc]

_dobbo_ said:

I have two sons. My overwhelming preference is that they be healthy and happy. If that means transitioning of course I would be overjoyed, because they would be doing something to make themselves happier.

You/they would hope that it would make themselves happier.

The reality is often very different.

[_dobbo_]

Often you say? Got any stats to back that up?

Don't forget - "Trans person happy after transitioning" doesn't generate quite the same number of hate clicks for the Daily Mail...

[amusingduck]

_dobbo_ said:

Often you say? Got any stats to back that up?

Don't forget - "Trans person happy after transitioning" doesn't generate quite the same number of hate clicks for the Daily Mail...

Approximately 40 percent of transgender adults reported attempting suicide in their lifetime, according to the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/comedian-s...

[Davos123]

amusingduck said:

Approximately 40 percent of transgender adults reported attempting suicide in their lifetime, according to the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/comedian-s...

That doesn't really show anything because it doesn't tell you the difference between transgender people who don't attempt to conform to their gender assigned at birth and those who do.

[8.4L 154]

Davos123 said:

amusingduck said:

Approximately 40 percent of transgender adults reported attempting suicide in their lifetime, according to the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/comedian-s...

That doesn't really show anything because it doesn't tell you the difference between transgender people who don't attempt to conform to their gender assigned at birth and those who do.

Or if the attempt was before, during or after transition. The study report highlighted such inadequacy in the question asked and lack of any follow up questions to provide such detail