The Gender Non-binary debate.

[Lance Catamaran]

Halb said:

Derek Smith said:

I can't see the problem. Call yourself whatever you want, including a title that does not reflect any gender at all.

I reckon we should have not differentiation with sex. It should be enshrined in law. You are a person and that's it. Anything else is superfluous. Do away with male, female, transgender and the rest of the nice differentiations. It's given enough problems in the past.

Surely there has to be a legal definition between male and female?

[TurboHatchback]

Halb said:

Derek Smith said:

I can't see the problem. Call yourself whatever you want, including a title that does not reflect any gender at all.

I reckon we should have not differentiation with sex. It should be enshrined in law. You are a person and that's it. Anything else is superfluous. Do away with male, female, transgender and the rest of the nice differentiations. It's given enough problems in the past.

I totally disagree, there are fundamental differences and issues that new age liberal thinking can't make disappear. I'm all for equality but the idea that we can just forget about gender is plain wrong. Do you really believe male police officers should be allowed to strip search female detainees, that women should be incarcerated in prisons full of men, that competitive sport should not be segregated? There needs to be a distinction in law and that distinction should be very clear and simple, based purely on physical sexual characteristics.

[Kermit power]

fatjon said:

Cannot be arsed with pretending that I am as deluded as they are by humouring their delusion. If you are born with a chopper you're a man and if not you are a woman. If you are born with both or neither than fair enough, make your choicer and I'm happy enough to accept it.

I used to take this view, until one of my wife's friends' husbands actually went through the whole process of becoming a woman.

My view now is that nobody would put themselves through that on a whim. The major surgery they undergo actually seems fairly minor compared to the complete upheaval they and those around them go through.

If someone really does feel this strongly about it - to the point where they may well become suicidal - then I think society should be grown up enough to support them as fully as possible.

The problem, I think, is all these utter pillocks who prance around pretending to be some sort of completely unique thing because they're attention wes and want to pretend they're special.

In many ways, I think there's a parallel to people going off sick with stress at work. For every person who really is properly stressed and in need of help, you've got a dozen or more who are just skiving or hiding from a disciplinary process, giving the truly ill a bad name...

[Halb]

Lance Catamaran said:

Halb said:

Derek Smith said:

I can't see the problem. Call yourself whatever you want, including a title that does not reflect any gender at all.

I reckon we should have not differentiation with sex. It should be enshrined in law. You are a person and that's it. Anything else is superfluous. Do away with male, female, transgender and the rest of the nice differentiations. It's given enough problems in the past.

Surely there has to be a legal definition between male and female?

Not being facetious, but does there?

[768]

Halb said:

Lance Catamaran said:

Surely there has to be a legal definition between male and female?

Not being facetious, but does there?

Rape law, possibly?

[Halb]

768 said:

Halb said:

Lance Catamaran said:

Surely there has to be a legal definition between male and female?

Not being facetious, but does there?

Rape law, possibly?

That popped into my head first, (and I thought of Peep Show), if you insert something into someone without consent, or have 'sex' without consent, that is rape. I am not sure what currently actually is rape with regards to attacks on men.

[Spanna]

Halb said:

768 said:

Halb said:

Lance Catamaran said:

Surely there has to be a legal definition between male and female?

Not being facetious, but does there?

Rape law, possibly?

That popped into my head first, (and I thought of Peep Show), if you insert something into someone without consent, or have 'sex' without consent, that is rape. I am not sure what currently actually is rape with regards to attacks on men.

Therein lies another issue and that's the importance of language, especially with regards to the law. Words need to have a clear, proper and precise meaning.

What's rape? Well it's a sexual attack on another human. Sure, but what fully constitutes the act of rape? Is it any unwanted sexual contact or does rape mean actual penetration?

Distinctions have to be made.

[Morningside]

Saw a form a couple of weeks ago. Under the box Sex it had M,F,N...OK fair enough but this is for primary children.

[Bacon Is Proof]

TurboHatchback said:

There needs to be a distinction in law and that distinction should be very clear and simple, based purely on physical sexual characteristics.

That would be easy if humans only displayed one of two physical sexual characteristics.

[Goaty Bill 2]

RDMcG said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Are you familiar with the issues and protests at UoT (and elsewhere) regarding Dr. Peterson / bill C16 featured in the OP video?

I don't doubt that the majority of LGBT people simply want to get on with their lives as any one else does.
If only it were that simple across the board.

Yes indeed and I am very supportive of Dr Peterson as it happens.

While I am very comfortable with gender fluidity, the insistence on a new form of grammar to apply to all people is to me political correctness gone completely mad and I am not about to abandon using terms like "he" or "she" and replace them with nonsense like "ze". I think a male should be called 'he" a female "she", and a TG person whatever gender that the person has chosen to be.

Dr. Peterson gave testimony yesterday (May 17) before the Canadian senate committee on Bill C16.
For any that are interested, this is a 2 hour video, Peterson is involved for the first hour(ish).
That his level of intelligence, researched knowledge, analytical abilities and historical knowledge are so far ahead of the senators is abundantly clear. His legal colleague is pretty clever too.
He covers the OP topic component 'non-binary' as well as gender fluidity.
He also delivers the nearest thing to a politely worded 'Hitchslap' you are likely to hear without referring to old videos of the Hitch himself.
LCJC meeting no. 70, Bill C-16, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code - YouTube

It should be pointed out that Bill C16 does not specifically mention the principal issues being discussed.
The bill is sufficiently vague so as to allow provinces to apply their own interpretations, not legislatively, but by Human Rights and Social Justice commissions.
The bill itself seems innocuous, it is not.

Whether or not people consider the passing or wording of legislation in Canada to be of any significance, this deals with many of the issues being discussed here.

[xjay1337]

Halb said:

768 said:

Halb said:

Lance Catamaran said:

Surely there has to be a legal definition between male and female?

Not being facetious, but does there?

Rape law, possibly?

That popped into my head first, (and I thought of Peep Show), if you insert something into someone without consent, or have 'sex' without consent, that is rape. I am not sure what currently actually is rape with regards to attacks on men.

I may be wrong, but as far as I was aware, it was impossible for a woman to "rape" a man - fingers / unwanted touching is "sexual assault".

[HTP99]

Kermit power said:

fatjon said:

Cannot be arsed with pretending that I am as deluded as they are by humouring their delusion. If you are born with a chopper you're a man and if not you are a woman. If you are born with both or neither than fair enough, make your choicer and I'm happy enough to accept it.

I used to take this view, until one of my wife's friends' husbands actually went through the whole process of becoming a woman.

My view now is that nobody would put themselves through that on a whim. The major surgery they undergo actually seems fairly minor compared to the complete upheaval they and those around them go through.

If someone really does feel this strongly about it - to the point where they may well become suicidal - then I think society should be grown up enough to support them as fully as possible.

The problem, I think, is all these utter pillocks who prance around pretending to be some sort of completely unique thing because they're attention wes and want to pretend they're special.

In many ways, I think there's a parallel to people going off sick with stress at work. For every person who really is properly stressed and in need of help, you've got a dozen or more who are just skiving or hiding from a disciplinary process, giving the truly ill a bad name...

My wife works with a girl who is currently transitioning into becoming a man, he detests the non binary thing and says it is attention seeking and makes a mockery of those who have real issues and hates it as transgender people get lumped into the same category.

There is a pupil at my daughters old school who wears a lanyard with the words "male" on one side and "female" on the other, this pupil turns the lanyard round to display whatever they are are feeling like at the time and have to be addressed as such, this person is pandered too and is allowed to act in such a way, to the point that anyone mocking them or not addressing them as they want to be addressed at the time, is disciplined, it is absolutely ridiculous.

[Shuvi McTupya]

HTP99 said:

There is a pupil at my daughters old school who wears a lanyard with the words "male" on one side and "female" on the other, this pupil turns the lanyard round to display whatever they are are feeling like at the time and have to be addressed as such, this person is pandered too and is allowed to act in such a way, to the point that anyone mocking them or not addressing them as they want to be addressed at the time, is disciplined, it is absolutely ridiculous.

That is absurd . I think I would refuse to enage with them at all, for fear of upsetting them and to protect myself.

[Goaty Bill 2]

HTP99 said:

Kermit power said:

fatjon said:

Cannot be arsed with pretending that I am as deluded as they are by humouring their delusion. If you are born with a chopper you're a man and if not you are a woman. If you are born with both or neither than fair enough, make your choicer and I'm happy enough to accept it.

I used to take this view, until one of my wife's friends' husbands actually went through the whole process of becoming a woman.

My view now is that nobody would put themselves through that on a whim. The major surgery they undergo actually seems fairly minor compared to the complete upheaval they and those around them go through.

If someone really does feel this strongly about it - to the point where they may well become suicidal - then I think society should be grown up enough to support them as fully as possible.

The problem, I think, is all these utter pillocks who prance around pretending to be some sort of completely unique thing because they're attention wes and want to pretend they're special.

In many ways, I think there's a parallel to people going off sick with stress at work. For every person who really is properly stressed and in need of help, you've got a dozen or more who are just skiving or hiding from a disciplinary process, giving the truly ill a bad name...

My wife works with a girl who is currently transitioning into becoming a man, he detests the non binary thing and says it is attention seeking and makes a mockery of those who have real issues and hates it as transgender people get lumped into the same category.

There is a pupil at my daughters old school who wears a lanyard with the words "male" on one side and "female" on the other, this pupil turns the lanyard round to display whatever they are are feeling like at the time and have to be addressed as such, this person is pandered too and is allowed to act in such a way, to the point that anyone mocking them or not addressing them as they want to be addressed at the time, is disciplined, it is absolutely ridiculous.

You are collectively highlighting two of the most important reasons for fighting these non-binary / fluidity concepts.
Accepting that someone feels neither male or female, but some unspecified neutral is fairly easy to grasp and perhaps deal with.
That there are many such identifiable states is absurd and untenable. Male and female gender identifying behaviours are themselves quite broad, that a third category must have endless specific states that must be recognised and catered for, is asking for greater rights than everyone else currently has.

Attention, in terms of addressing the issues in a common sense way, is intentionally being pulled away from people who truly have issues, and being forced towards those that are demanding attention and special status.
There are people with genuine mental health and stress issues that are deserving of consideration, and might well have it, were people not being forced to accept these pernicious ideology driven nonsensical concepts such as gender fluidity, and claims that we are harming people by not submitting to their whims.

The student in your example is using their undeserved and unearned privilege to exert power over other students, and the teachers are complicit. It is evil and detrimental to all the other students forced to come into contact with this one.
There is no way this is helping the subject. They are being encouraged to use victim hood and unearned power to achieve their goals. It's mental abuse against both the subject and their 'victims'. The resentment of fellow students must be enormous.

No doubt said student has also defined their gender specific pronouns as well as their gender specific names?
Forcing people to utter words they are not familiar/comfortable with, or to apologise for not using them is the most egregious infraction of freedom of thought and speech possible.
Utterly reprehensible.

Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Thursday 18th May 17:03

[Lance Catamaran]

There is a youtuber I follow who is non-binary - I like the videos they make so couldn't care less who they identify as. But hey retweeted this as "selling out trans people" and "laughable"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/india-w...

I have to say, one thing I find odd about any minority group is that they are expected by their peers to hold a uniform set of views and ideologies. I've asked them this (genuinely interested to know, not trolling or trying to start an argument) and I'd be very interested to know how far they'd expect the traditional male/female differences to be removed in order to suit what will always be a tiny minority of the population, and if they feel the current "fad" is damaging the case of the genuine ones

[Goaty Bill 2]

Lance Catamaran said:

There is a youtuber I follow who is non-binary - I like the videos they make so couldn't care less who they identify as. But hey retweeted this as "selling out trans people" and "laughable"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/india-w...

I have to say, one thing I find odd about any minority group is that they are expected by their peers to hold a uniform set of views and ideologies. I've asked them this (genuinely interested to know, not trolling or trying to start an argument) and I'd be very interested to know how far they'd expect the traditional male/female differences to be removed in order to suit what will always be a tiny minority of the population, and if they feel the current "fad" is damaging the case of the genuine ones

A sad but not uncommon example of people who, if they did not have/promote transgender issues, would have no public persona whatsoever.
Famous for being famously controversial.

Of course that someone has reported Piers Morgan for a 'hate crime' should come as no surprise.
The classic "If you do not think as me, and speak as me, you are both wrong and evil, and must be punished."

The arrogance would have seemed astonishing only a few years ago.

[Gogoplata]

[Goaty Bill 2]

Technically no.

As the English language doesn't have gender in the same way as some other languages, we tend to make a direct association between one and the other, which of course is valid in 99.97% (at least) of cases.

The 'B' in LGBT+ refers to Bi-sexual which is sexual 'preference' or the openness to sexual partners of both sexes, rather than gender identification male or female, or as the topic partially implies - neither gender.

[Lance Catamaran]

You're out of date anyway - the correct phrase is now LGBTQIA (queer, intersexual and asexual - and no, I don't know how being queer is different from being gay or lesbian either).

Anyway, I had a brief exchange with said youtuber, interesting to get a different view but they didn't answer the key points I raised. To have equality it needs to be legally enshrined. If gender really is fluid and just needs the feelings of the person in question, how will that sit legally? How will they prevent people abusing it, such as someone declaring that they identify as female today so want to use a female dressing room? They said it wasn't about taking away the traditional roles, but at the same time don't want them enforced on society.

I do understand there are a few people out there who genuinely do not feel they belong to either gender, but remain unconvinced that most aren't just doing it because it's the latest attention-grabbing fad (like how when I was at school everyone was claiming to be bisexual, now they're all married with kids), or that so much should be done to accommodate such a tiny proportion of our population.

[AlexC1981]

Gender fluidity is incomprehensible to me and for that reason I do not understand why so many people here insist that gender should be defined by chromosomes or genitalia only. How could you possibly have the faintest idea of what gender fluidity is like and so be able to state your case so firmly?

I really think this is one of those things you have to experience from the other side before you can start insisting on anything.