The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain

[dvs_dave]

pork911 said:

What extremes? Norway copes, many of our commercial buildings cope.

So what works in Norway will work just as well in the completely different UK?

Maybe, if you willfully ignore the fact that Norwegian homes have super duper insulation that were designed from the outset for heat pumps with electric heat backup. That’s great when your blessed with practically free hydro power and a population of only 5.5m to keep warm.

This is completely irrelevant to the UK and the challenge of retrofitting your average UK housing stock with mediocre insulation, designed for GSH. A heat pump to supplement the GSH would cut down on gas emissions significantly as it would only need to run to when the heat pump isn’t performing optimally. Best of both worlds.

[Zumbruk]

pork911 said:

What extremes? Norway copes, many of our commercial buildings cope.

ASHPs don't cope well when the temperature is near freezing due to evaporator icing.

[dvs_dave]

Zumbruk said:

pork911 said:

What extremes? Norway copes, many of our commercial buildings cope.

ASHPs don't cope well when the temperature is near freezing due to evaporator icing.

Exactly. So they have to rely on hugely expensive high kW resistive electric heat backup. That’s not practical for the UK. Gas is much better at that, certainly from a cost perspective.

[pork911]

dvs_dave said:

Zumbruk said:

pork911 said:

What extremes? Norway copes, many of our commercial buildings cope.

ASHPs don't cope well when the temperature is near freezing due to evaporator icing.

Exactly. So they have to rely on hugely expensive high kW resistive electric heat backup. That’s not practical for the UK. Gas is much better at that, certainly from a cost perspective.

Is Norway milder?

[dickymint]

dvs_dave said:

pork911 said:

What extremes? Norway copes, many of our commercial buildings cope.

So what works in Norway will work just as well in the completely different UK?

Maybe, if you willfully ignore the fact that Norwegian homes have super duper insulation that were designed from the outset for heat pumps with electric heat backup. That’s great when your blessed with practically free hydro power and a population of only 5.5m to keep warm.

This is completely irrelevant to the UK and the challenge of retrofitting your average UK housing stock with mediocre insulation, designed for GSH. A heat pump to supplement the GSH would cut down on gas emissions significantly as it would only need to run to when the heat pump isn’t performing optimally. Best of both worlds.

Heatpumps are next to useless without spending huge amounts on insulation. No matter how many politicians keep spouting off about more insulation no government as yet will actually address this problem! Just look at past "green deals" that have come to absolutely no take up.

[dvs_dave]

pork911 said:

dvs_dave said:

Zumbruk said:

pork911 said:

What extremes? Norway copes, many of our commercial buildings cope.

ASHPs don't cope well when the temperature is near freezing due to evaporator icing.

Exactly. So they have to rely on hugely expensive high kW resistive electric heat backup. That’s not practical for the UK. Gas is much better at that, certainly from a cost perspective.

Is Norway milder?

Are deliberately ignoring fundamental differences to make your point?

[Evanivitch]

dvs_dave said:

Zumbruk said:

pork911 said:

What extremes? Norway copes, many of our commercial buildings cope.

ASHPs don't cope well when the temperature is near freezing due to evaporator icing.

Exactly. So they have to rely on hugely expensive high kW resistive electric heat backup. That’s not practical for the UK. Gas is much better at that, certainly from a cost perspective.

And having a secondary boiler idle for 51 weeks a year is cheap? Plus the cost of gas?

You'd spend best part of £180 a year just maintaining a gas connection...

[dvs_dave]

dickymint said:

Heatpumps are next to useless without spending huge amounts on insulation. No matter how many politicians keep spouting off about more insulation no government as yet will actually address this problem! Just look at past "green deals" that have come to absolutely no take up.

As a stand-alone solution, for most of the existing UK housing stock they’re not suitable for retrofit without a lot of supplemental work, insulation etc. Dual fuel/hybrid setups in these circumstances are a good compromise. Ie, leave the existing GCH in place, and have the heat pump in series with it, feeding into its return side. Then the gas can provide either supplemental heat or all the heat when conditions for the heat pump aren’t ideal. You’ll find at least significantly reduced gas consumption, at best barely any, except in the coldest weather.

Zero emissions? No. Significantly reduced emissions, oh yes.

[dvs_dave]

Evanivitch said:

And having a secondary boiler idle for 51 weeks a year is cheap? Plus the cost of gas?

You'd spend best part of £180 a year just maintaining a gas connection...

Why? A CH boiler sits idle for much of the year anyway. Why would extending that idle time be any more problematic than currently? You know modern boilers don’t run pilots lights so don’t consume any gas when not firing? Plus gas is nice to have to cook on year round, regardless.

[Evanivitch]

dvs_dave said:

Evanivitch said:

And having a secondary boiler idle for 51 weeks a year is cheap? Plus the cost of gas?

You'd spend best part of £180 a year just maintaining a gas connection...

Why? A CH boiler sits idle for much of the year anyway. Why would extending that idle time be any more problematic than currently? You know modern boilers don’t run pilots lights so don’t consume any gas when not firing? Plus gas is nice to have to cook on year round, regardless.

Nah, I stopped polluting my kitchen 3 years ago. Induction has been absolutely great.

CH boilers don't sit idle for much of the year unless people tend to run a gas central heating boiler and then electric immersion for water? I know a few people with solar do...

[hidetheelephants]

dickymint said:

Heatpumps are next to useless without spending huge amounts on insulation. No matter how many politicians keep spouting off about more insulation no government as yet will actually address this problem! Just look at past "green deals" that have come to absolutely no take up.

It would help if they just subsidised the cost of insulation materials rather than create artificial barriers to entry with 'approved' contractors who are then incentivised to rentseek.

[dvs_dave]

Evanivitch said:

Nah, I stopped polluting my kitchen 3 years ago. Induction has been absolutely great.

CH boilers don't sit idle for much of the year unless people tend to run a gas central heating boiler and then electric immersion for water? I know a few people with solar do...

Ok cool. Fringe non-issue showstoppers it is then…

[JagLover]

dickymint said:

dvs_dave said:

pork911 said:

What extremes? Norway copes, many of our commercial buildings cope.

So what works in Norway will work just as well in the completely different UK?

Maybe, if you willfully ignore the fact that Norwegian homes have super duper insulation that were designed from the outset for heat pumps with electric heat backup. That’s great when your blessed with practically free hydro power and a population of only 5.5m to keep warm.

This is completely irrelevant to the UK and the challenge of retrofitting your average UK housing stock with mediocre insulation, designed for GSH. A heat pump to supplement the GSH would cut down on gas emissions significantly as it would only need to run to when the heat pump isn’t performing optimally. Best of both worlds.

Heatpumps are next to useless without spending huge amounts on insulation. No matter how many politicians keep spouting off about more insulation no government as yet will actually address this problem! Just look at past "green deals" that have come to absolutely no take up.

I suspect that in reality in many cases we are talking about knocking the house down and rebuilding it as retrofitting insulation will only take you so far.

[Evanivitch]

dvs_dave said:

Evanivitch said:

Nah, I stopped polluting my kitchen 3 years ago. Induction has been absolutely great.

CH boilers don't sit idle for much of the year unless people tend to run a gas central heating boiler and then electric immersion for water? I know a few people with solar do...

Ok cool. Fringe non-issue showstoppers it is then…

Eh? You said CH boilers sit idle for most of the year. That's rubbish.

[pork911]

JagLover said:

dickymint said:

dvs_dave said:

pork911 said:

What extremes? Norway copes, many of our commercial buildings cope.

So what works in Norway will work just as well in the completely different UK?

Maybe, if you willfully ignore the fact that Norwegian homes have super duper insulation that were designed from the outset for heat pumps with electric heat backup. That’s great when your blessed with practically free hydro power and a population of only 5.5m to keep warm.

This is completely irrelevant to the UK and the challenge of retrofitting your average UK housing stock with mediocre insulation, designed for GSH. A heat pump to supplement the GSH would cut down on gas emissions significantly as it would only need to run to when the heat pump isn’t performing optimally. Best of both worlds.

Heatpumps are next to useless without spending huge amounts on insulation. No matter how many politicians keep spouting off about more insulation no government as yet will actually address this problem! Just look at past "green deals" that have come to absolutely no take up.

I suspect that in reality in many cases we are talking about knocking the house down and rebuilding it as retrofitting insulation will only take you so far.

Never sure why insulation is only apparently required to move to heat pumps but not to stay on gas.

Even if this is as big an obstacle as vested interests suggest it is not a reason to fail require heat pumps on New builds.

As for retrofit, British innovation suddenly deserts us over insulation.

We can though via the recent 'fiscal event' fund energy bill support at £1bn every 3 DAYS but only £1bn for 3 YEARS on energy efficiency measures.

Like with gas, let's focus on the tap not the holes in the leaky bucket below it.

[pquinn]

Why do people fixate on specific solutions as a universal fix then try to gloss over problems instead of evaluating alternatives?

Or even worse say 'we must invest in this' on ideological grounds, then try to expensively backfill to make it usable, instead of just identifying something that actually works properly in the first place?

Is critical thinking and reason dead?

[pork911]

The same applies for transitioning, whereby if it doesn't fit every possible circumstance then the status quo should remain across the board.

[pork911]

Ban gas boilers for new builds and see how minds change (or just require NOx alarms in homes and see how many are the persuaded with the realisation emissions aren't just outside )

[mondeoman]

pork911 said:

Ban gas boilers for new builds and see how minds change (or just require NOx alarms in homes and see how many are the persuaded with the realisation emissions aren't just outside )

Better yet, just ban all heating in new builds. Simplest way to get to zero emissions.

[pork911]

Or price in the currently free planet burning subsidy onto energy prices, plenty will move from gas then.

Separately we cannot see the change due to the cap but green levies were 2pc on gas bills V 23pc on elec bills, those now on general tax plus increased global gas prices mean the true picture is hidden for now.