The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
Matthen said:
Can we up the voltage? Are we really at the limit, or is it somewhat arbitrary?
Seems to me that more HV lines should be a national priority
They are. Buy NIMBYs don't like overland lines, some of the lines are being uprated to 400kV but it's slow, and the HVDC lines are going in as fast as we can plan and build them.Seems to me that more HV lines should be a national priority
dvs_dave said:
Are those HVDC lines subsea/waterways within the national grid or only international interconnects?
Seems we could negate a lot of NIMBY problems by just going the long way around and using our coastline and waterways to run cables to get from point to point.
Within the national grid, bypassing the land bottlenecks. Eastern and Western HVDC.Seems we could negate a lot of NIMBY problems by just going the long way around and using our coastline and waterways to run cables to get from point to point.
Evanivitch said:
They are. Buy NIMBYs don't like overland lines, some of the lines are being uprated to 400kV but it's slow, and the HVDC lines are going in as fast as we can plan and build them.
As someone who used to live near some pylons, and could hear a constant irritating buzzing whenever the air was damp, I would say they've good reason to not like them.Let's also not forget that a lot of studies on associated health risks from the electrical and magnetic fields all say the risk is fine at the current voltage. Who know what will happen if they are whacked up to double?
In other news, it was announced on the headlines this morning that someone in the government has come to their senses and sanctioned the building of several new gas fired stations, to replace the current ones on the verge of falling over whilst the "green" generation techniques are still trying to approximate anything like a constant supply.
No doubt there will be predictable screeching from supporters of the Swedish Doom Goblin, but I bet they'd change their tune having to live with rolling blackouts as an alternative....
ChemicalChaos said:
In other news, it was announced on the headlines this morning that someone in the government has come to their senses and sanctioned the building of several new gas fired stations, to replace the current ones on the verge of falling over whilst the "green" generation techniques are still trying to approximate anything like a constant supply.
No doubt there will be predictable screeching from supporters of the Swedish Doom Goblin, but I bet they'd change their tune having to live with rolling blackouts as an alternative....
It's a bit of a nothing announcement. The government aren't building them, they're just saying they're going to allow them to be built, subject to private investment. The only change is that the small number of new stations won't have to be fitted with CCS or whatever by 2030, but the rest of the existing fleet will, as far as I can see. The current Capacity Market mechanism is there to ensure there is enough thermal generation for low wind days, and these units will have to bid into the CM in the same way as any other plant, so if NG decide they want X MW in the CM, then the new stations displace something else. No doubt there will be predictable screeching from supporters of the Swedish Doom Goblin, but I bet they'd change their tune having to live with rolling blackouts as an alternative....
In my opinion it's a pre-election ploy to try and get the "anti net-zero" crew onside ahead of the election, rather than any meaningful change in direction or policy announcement. The whole wording is electioneering, "we will take difficult decisions", "free us from dictators like Putin", "British power for British homes". It's all basically bulls
t. Far far more important (for the industry, and potentially bill payers) is the zonal pricing which was only barely mentioned.
ChemicalChaos said:
As someone who used to live near some pylons, and could hear a constant irritating buzzing whenever the air was damp, I would say they've good reason to not like them.
Let's also not forget that a lot of studies on associated health risks from the electrical and magnetic fields all say the risk is fine at the current voltage. Who know what will happen if they are whacked up to double?
Plenty of reason not to like them, but that's not sufficient justification to block development of national importance. Let's also not forget that a lot of studies on associated health risks from the electrical and magnetic fields all say the risk is fine at the current voltage. Who know what will happen if they are whacked up to double?
We wonder why every infrastructure costs so much in this country, and it's because we set the threshold for reasonable adjustments to an insane degree.
Given that I currently sit on top of a 380V battery, I'm not too bothered.
ChemicalChaos said:
Evanivitch said:
They are. Buy NIMBYs don't like overland lines, some of the lines are being uprated to 400kV but it's slow, and the HVDC lines are going in as fast as we can plan and build them.
As someone who used to live near some pylons, and could hear a constant irritating buzzing whenever the air was damp, I would say they've good reason to not like them.Let's also not forget that a lot of studies on associated health risks from the electrical and magnetic fields all say the risk is fine at the current voltage. Who know what will happen if they are whacked up to double?
In other news, it was announced on the headlines this morning that someone in the government has come to their senses and sanctioned the building of several new gas fired stations, to replace the current ones on the verge of falling over whilst the "green" generation techniques are still trying to approximate anything like a constant supply.
No doubt there will be predictable screeching from supporters of the Swedish Doom Goblin, but I bet they'd change their tune having to live with rolling blackouts as an alternative....
Seems like the motorway network may be our answer. Run them parallel to the motorways: the noise from the road will drown out the buzzing
. Also, be easy to connect the service stations to the 400kV lines, ready for the scores of electric car chargers they're going to need. Matthen said:
Seems like the motorway network may be our answer. Run them parallel to the motorways: the noise from the road will drown out the buzzing . Also, be easy to connect the service stations to the 400kV lines, ready for the scores of electric car chargers they're going to need.
Typically some of the network already does, but there aren't motorways in the middle of nowhere.... Also, be easy to connect the service stations to the 400kV lines, ready for the scores of electric car chargers they're going to need. Wales has just used the hardshoulder to bury the fibre optic backbone through South Wales.
Matthen said:
Seems like the motorway network may be our answer. Run them parallel to the motorways: the noise from the road will drown out the buzzing . Also, be easy to connect the service stations to the 400kV lines, ready for the scores of electric car chargers they're going to need.
Simple enough - then every services will only need a 400kV substation. They don't take up much space . Also, be easy to connect the service stations to the 400kV lines, ready for the scores of electric car chargers they're going to need. 
least it'll keep the fault levels up.Condi said:
ChemicalChaos said:
In other news, it was announced on the headlines this morning that someone in the government has come to their senses and sanctioned the building of several new gas fired stations, to replace the current ones on the verge of falling over whilst the "green" generation techniques are still trying to approximate anything like a constant supply.
No doubt there will be predictable screeching from supporters of the Swedish Doom Goblin, but I bet they'd change their tune having to live with rolling blackouts as an alternative....
It's a bit of a nothing announcement. The government aren't building them, they're just saying they're going to allow them to be built, subject to private investment. The only change is that the small number of new stations won't have to be fitted with CCS or whatever by 2030, but the rest of the existing fleet will, as far as I can see. The current Capacity Market mechanism is there to ensure there is enough thermal generation for low wind days, and these units will have to bid into the CM in the same way as any other plant, so if NG decide they want X MW in the CM, then the new stations displace something else. No doubt there will be predictable screeching from supporters of the Swedish Doom Goblin, but I bet they'd change their tune having to live with rolling blackouts as an alternative....
In my opinion it's a pre-election ploy to try and get the "anti net-zero" crew onside ahead of the election, rather than any meaningful change in direction or policy announcement. The whole wording is electioneering, "we will take difficult decisions", "free us from dictators like Putin", "British power for British homes". It's all basically bulls
t. Far far more important (for the industry, and potentially bill payers) is the zonal pricing which was only barely mentioned.
ked without it happening!dickymint said:
But it will happen - else we are totally fked without it happening!
Who knows? It needs private finance, and revenue from the capacity market. I expect it will happen, although one interesting quirk will be that while construction costs are cheaper (no carbon capture), they'll be very expensive to run in a world where carbon has a price (UK emissions scheme), and all the other units are putting their carbon underground. ked without it happening!It comes back to the same problem - the market doesn't price redundancy very well, and yet the Government wants private companies to build things to sit there and do nothing for 99% of the time. The only way that happens is with subsidies, by which point the Government may as well build the thing themselves!
Matthen said:
Roderick Spode said:
Simple enough - then every services will only need a 400kV substation. They don't take up much space least it'll keep the fault levels up.
least it'll keep the fault levels up.Wonder if they'd fit on the footprint of a petrol station...
Ie, you can step voltages up really high in small electronics... 10v ish to 50,000v ish in a hand held taser.
Shirley you can just have a small ish sub-station in this example?
Mr Whippy said:
Is substation size a function of voltage step size, or the power you intend to change the voltage of?
Ie, you can step voltages up really high in small electronics... 10v ish to 50,000v ish in a hand held taser.
Shirley you can just have a small ish sub-station in this example?
Think about the resulting current needed to deliver the actual power level. Tasers are low power devices (no space for a large battery). Electric car charging and the like rather less so.Ie, you can step voltages up really high in small electronics... 10v ish to 50,000v ish in a hand held taser.
Shirley you can just have a small ish sub-station in this example?
Evanivitch said:
I was a bit surprised by the gas announcement given they've just installed a 299 MW gas plant at Hirwaun.
That and a second one were granted approval back in 2015, so while new generation, it's still almost 10 years between approval and entering service. 10 years time every CCGT on the network is supposed to have carbon capture installed, or be burning hydrogen. Current status, 0 stations have carbon capture and 0 stations burn hydrogen! Mr Whippy said:
Matthen said:
Roderick Spode said:
Simple enough - then every services will only need a 400kV substation. They don't take up much space least it'll keep the fault levels up.
least it'll keep the fault levels up.Wonder if they'd fit on the footprint of a petrol station...
Ie, you can step voltages up really high in small electronics... 10v ish to 50,000v ish in a hand held taser.
Shirley you can just have a small ish sub-station in this example?
You also run into "gauge limits" when you scale anything down in size. These would be minimum sizes for materials and equipment based on them being robust enough for general handling and also there are frequently manufacturing limits on how thin stuff can be.
Mr Whippy said:
Matthen said:
Roderick Spode said:
Simple enough - then every services will only need a 400kV substation. They don't take up much space least it'll keep the fault levels up.
least it'll keep the fault levels up.Wonder if they'd fit on the footprint of a petrol station...
Ie, you can step voltages up really high in small electronics... 10v ish to 50,000v ish in a hand held taser.
Shirley you can just have a small ish sub-station in this example?
the turns ratio would be wild.You would need an intermediate voltage level - I know of several EHV connected wind farms, and they go from 400kV to 33kV for local distribution, then 33/0.69kV at the turbines. A services substation could have 400/33kV then 33/0.415kV transformers, and resulting switchgear, P&C for those voltage levels. Still a healthy footprint of plant for some car charging points, and a fault level that could sustain a small town.
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