The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
Roderick Spode said:
Mr Whippy said:
Matthen said:
Roderick Spode said:
Simple enough - then every services will only need a 400kV substation. They don't take up much space 
least it'll keep the fault levels up.
least it'll keep the fault levels up.Wonder if they'd fit on the footprint of a petrol station...
Ie, you can step voltages up really high in small electronics... 10v ish to 50,000v ish in a hand held taser.
Shirley you can just have a small ish sub-station in this example?
the turns ratio would be wild.You would need an intermediate voltage level - I know of several EHV connected wind farms, and they go from 400kV to 33kV for local distribution, then 33/0.69kV at the turbines. A services substation could have 400/33kV then 33/0.415kV transformers, and resulting switchgear, P&C for those voltage levels. Still a healthy footprint of plant for some car charging points, and a fault level that could sustain a small town.
I assume you could keep the voltage at 1000V, esp on the MW chargers. Those stations are going to need a lot of power - and equipping them with gas turbines instead to handle the load seems to be defeating the point.
Matthen said:
I feel way may have gone off topic... Assuming the electric car revolution takes off, we will be wanting 10s of 300 KW chargers, and a non-zero number of MW chargers.
I assume you could keep the voltage at 1000V, esp on the MW chargers. Those stations are going to need a lot of power - and equipping them with gas turbines instead to handle the load seems to be defeating the point.
Agreed. There are a number of new dedicated charging stations have popped up on my travels with 11kV connections to the local distribution systems and the little pizza hut type housings. These are the newest generation of high capacity rapid chargers, so a bank of 350kW units probably connected to a ~800kVA 11/0.415kV transformer. The difficulty of making the supply voltage anywhere above 1000V to the chargers would be the requirement to then have ESSoW for anyone needing to work on them. Maintaining 415V from the supply point keeps things simple, and it's still possible to source substantial load from 415V.I assume you could keep the voltage at 1000V, esp on the MW chargers. Those stations are going to need a lot of power - and equipping them with gas turbines instead to handle the load seems to be defeating the point.
. The current on the secondary was a bit high !xeny said:
Mr Whippy said:
Is substation size a function of voltage step size, or the power you intend to change the voltage of?
Ie, you can step voltages up really high in small electronics... 10v ish to 50,000v ish in a hand held taser.
Shirley you can just have a small ish sub-station in this example?
Think about the resulting current needed to deliver the actual power level. Tasers are low power devices (no space for a large battery). Electric car charging and the like rather less so.Ie, you can step voltages up really high in small electronics... 10v ish to 50,000v ish in a hand held taser.
Shirley you can just have a small ish sub-station in this example?
The post inferred the substation would be huge, but most 400kv step down substations will be providing power for large areas won’t they?
For a bunch of car chargers and a few shops at a motorway services it’d surely be many times smaller than a substation that eventually feeds into a bunch of towns or whatever?
That’s all I’m questioning… is substation size roughly proportional to power, not the step?
If so then the suggested 400kv along motorway routes seems quite sensible with charging infrastructure being an easy addition?!
Mr Whippy said:
I am thinking about the power needed.
The post inferred the substation would be huge, but most 400kv step down substations will be providing power for large areas won’t they?
For a bunch of car chargers and a few shops at a motorway services it’d surely be many times smaller than a substation that eventually feeds into a bunch of towns or whatever?
That’s all I’m questioning… is substation size roughly proportional to power, not the step?
If so then the suggested 400kv along motorway routes seems quite sensible with charging infrastructure being an easy addition?!
Most big substations are for switching multiple lines and to provide for configuration to allow maintenance etc, have a large mesh of busbars, disconnectors, VT's, CT's and circuit breakers (and everything is in triple). A 400kV to 23kV transformer on the other hand is only the size of a couple of busses so if its a simple matter of a cable to a couple of step down transformers, the area does not need to be big but it aint a substation.The post inferred the substation would be huge, but most 400kv step down substations will be providing power for large areas won’t they?
For a bunch of car chargers and a few shops at a motorway services it’d surely be many times smaller than a substation that eventually feeds into a bunch of towns or whatever?
That’s all I’m questioning… is substation size roughly proportional to power, not the step?
If so then the suggested 400kv along motorway routes seems quite sensible with charging infrastructure being an easy addition?!
But the cost of a 400kV connection is probably out of reach for most, not just the cost of the equipment, but also getting a connection and being allowed to run one under the grid code. Best to pick up from the local 33kV etc supplies.
Gary C said:
Most big substations are for switching multiple lines and to provide for configuration to allow maintenance etc, have a large mesh of busbars, disconnectors, VT's, CT's and circuit breakers (and everything is in triple). A 400kV to 23kV transformer on the other hand is only the size of a couple of busses so if its a simple matter of a cable to a couple of step down transformers, the area does not need to be big but it aint a substation.
But the cost of a 400kV connection is probably out of reach for most, not just the cost of the equipment, but also getting a connection and being allowed to run one under the grid code. Best to pick up from the local 33kV etc supplies.
Ah ok, so unlikely to see 400kV (or higher) integrated into motorway routes and using that proximity for fast car/truck (in future) charging along those routes?But the cost of a 400kV connection is probably out of reach for most, not just the cost of the equipment, but also getting a connection and being allowed to run one under the grid code. Best to pick up from the local 33kV etc supplies.
Gary C said:
Mr Whippy said:
I am thinking about the power needed.
The post inferred the substation would be huge, but most 400kv step down substations will be providing power for large areas won’t they?
For a bunch of car chargers and a few shops at a motorway services it’d surely be many times smaller than a substation that eventually feeds into a bunch of towns or whatever?
That’s all I’m questioning… is substation size roughly proportional to power, not the step?
If so then the suggested 400kv along motorway routes seems quite sensible with charging infrastructure being an easy addition?!
Most big substations are for switching multiple lines and to provide for configuration to allow maintenance etc, have a large mesh of busbars, disconnectors, VT's, CT's and circuit breakers (and everything is in triple). A 400kV to 23kV transformer on the other hand is only the size of a couple of busses so if its a simple matter of a cable to a couple of step down transformers, the area does not need to be big but it aint a substation.The post inferred the substation would be huge, but most 400kv step down substations will be providing power for large areas won’t they?
For a bunch of car chargers and a few shops at a motorway services it’d surely be many times smaller than a substation that eventually feeds into a bunch of towns or whatever?
That’s all I’m questioning… is substation size roughly proportional to power, not the step?
If so then the suggested 400kv along motorway routes seems quite sensible with charging infrastructure being an easy addition?!
But the cost of a 400kV connection is probably out of reach for most, not just the cost of the equipment, but also getting a connection and being allowed to run one under the grid code. Best to pick up from the local 33kV etc supplies.
The long term result is that switch gear might go to closed boxes of semi conductors, circuit breakers go to compact pyrotechnic devices and frequency converters mean that transformers vastly shrink in size.
Talksteer said:
The last point is quite interesting around grid codes, one of the things that will eventually have quite an impact will be EVs (and to a lesser extent wind turbines) making power electronics cheaper and more ubiquitous.
The long term result is that switch gear might go to closed boxes of semi conductors, circuit breakers go to compact pyrotechnic devices and frequency converters mean that transformers vastly shrink in size.
[Img]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Aumkar-Borgaonkar/publication/283620680/figure/fig1/AS:294104539512832@1447131394596/Size-comparison-between-low-frequency-and-high-frequency-transformers-Image-Courtesy.png[/thumb]
Thing is, to get a connection and be allowed to operate it under the Grid Code requires a bit of substance (both intellectually and financially) that most companies wont be arsed with when you can get your local network operator to do that all for you and provide a 33kV or lower supply that will be more than adequate.The long term result is that switch gear might go to closed boxes of semi conductors, circuit breakers go to compact pyrotechnic devices and frequency converters mean that transformers vastly shrink in size.
[Img]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Aumkar-Borgaonkar/publication/283620680/figure/fig1/AS:294104539512832@1447131394596/Size-comparison-between-low-frequency-and-high-frequency-transformers-Image-Courtesy.png[/thumb]
Gary C said:
Most big substations are for switching multiple lines and to provide for configuration to allow maintenance etc, have a large mesh of busbars, disconnectors, VT's, CT's and circuit breakers (and everything is in triple). A 400kV to 23kV transformer on the other hand is only the size of a couple of busses so if its a simple matter of a cable to a couple of step down transformers, the area does not need to be big but it aint a substation.
But the cost of a 400kV connection is probably out of reach for most, not just the cost of the equipment, but also getting a connection and being allowed to run one under the grid code. Best to pick up from the local 33kV etc supplies.
Are Network Rail not trying to move to mainly 400kV supplies for their new feeders? They must cause havoc on the local grid what with an individual train drawing 5+MW, appearing and disappearing and occasionally trying to push power back the way from the regen brakes.But the cost of a 400kV connection is probably out of reach for most, not just the cost of the equipment, but also getting a connection and being allowed to run one under the grid code. Best to pick up from the local 33kV etc supplies.
alangla said:
Are Network Rail not trying to move to mainly 400kV supplies for their new feeders? They must cause havoc on the local grid what with an individual train drawing 5+MW, appearing and disappearing and occasionally trying to push power back the way from the regen brakes.
Wait till the Arc Furnaces come online...alangla said:
Gary C said:
Most big substations are for switching multiple lines and to provide for configuration to allow maintenance etc, have a large mesh of busbars, disconnectors, VT's, CT's and circuit breakers (and everything is in triple). A 400kV to 23kV transformer on the other hand is only the size of a couple of busses so if its a simple matter of a cable to a couple of step down transformers, the area does not need to be big but it aint a substation.
But the cost of a 400kV connection is probably out of reach for most, not just the cost of the equipment, but also getting a connection and being allowed to run one under the grid code. Best to pick up from the local 33kV etc supplies.
Are Network Rail not trying to move to mainly 400kV supplies for their new feeders? They must cause havoc on the local grid what with an individual train drawing 5+MW, appearing and disappearing and occasionally trying to push power back the way from the regen brakes.But the cost of a 400kV connection is probably out of reach for most, not just the cost of the equipment, but also getting a connection and being allowed to run one under the grid code. Best to pick up from the local 33kV etc supplies.
The load changes on the 400kV system are much larger than a 5MW train.
Gary C said:
Of course 400kV isn't the local grid.
The load changes on the 400kV system are much larger than a 5MW train.
Poor phraseology. The grid in that area.The load changes on the 400kV system are much larger than a 5MW train.
I was thinking more of the potential effect of multiple trains in the same area starting off near-simultaneously, and the whole on/off/regen nature of the load from each. I take it that’s easier to handle on a 400kV connection than on a 275?
alangla said:
Gary C said:
Of course 400kV isn't the local grid.
The load changes on the 400kV system are much larger than a 5MW train.
Poor phraseology. The grid in that area.The load changes on the 400kV system are much larger than a 5MW train.
I was thinking more of the potential effect of multiple trains in the same area starting off near-simultaneously, and the whole on/off/regen nature of the load from each. I take it that’s easier to handle on a 400kV connection than on a 275?
We do inform the grid before we start our gas circulators (8 x 5MW motors) though.
Gary C said:
We can loose 660MW in one go and the grid can take it if we have a reactor trip. Not sure about transient input & output from a mass of trains. I would have thought its too low to be of any real note.
Trains make no difference at all to the system frequency. There are hundreds of them all doing different things at different times so the net effect is very small. It's just noise. Groundwork for offshore floating wind progresses.
https://www.current-news.co.uk/uk-government-selec...
Gwynt Glas being the initial project for Port Talbot.
https://www.power-technology.com/data-insights/pow...
Arup assessing some truly bonkers concept.
https://www.arup.com/news-and-events/arup-appointe...
https://www.current-news.co.uk/uk-government-selec...
Gwynt Glas being the initial project for Port Talbot.
https://www.power-technology.com/data-insights/pow...
Arup assessing some truly bonkers concept.
https://www.arup.com/news-and-events/arup-appointe...
PushedDover said:
Not blaming the messenger in anyway, but I’ll bet a point on each of those not being brought to fruition as said……
Various reasons for each of course but alll three are supremely flawed technically and commercially (spoken as a part and believer of the sector)
I think given the current costs of connecting North Sea wind farms there's value in using the underutilised connectivity in South Wales. There's a 400V connection to Pembroke gas and the now closed Aberthaw, offering easy land connectivity on a part of the country that otherwise lacks significant wind generation (often, when wind is high the supposed regional carbon intensity of South Wales is significantly higher than elsewhere). Having wind generation far removed from North Sea weather patterns certainly offers some diversity (and pragmatically some security) in supply.Various reasons for each of course but alll three are supremely flawed technically and commercially (spoken as a part and believer of the sector)
PushedDover said:
Not blaming the messenger in anyway, but I’ll bet a point on each of those not being brought to fruition as said……
Various reasons for each of course but alll three are supremely flawed technically and commercially (spoken as a part and believer of the sector)
I think given the current costs of connecting North Sea wind farms there's value in using the underutilised connectivity in South Wales. There's a 400V connection to Pembroke gas and the now closed Aberthaw, offering easy land connectivity on a part of the country that otherwise lacks significant wind generation (often, when wind is high the supposed regional carbon intensity of South Wales is significantly higher than elsewhere). Having wind generation far removed from North Sea weather patterns certainly offers some diversity (and pragmatically some security) in supply.Various reasons for each of course but alll three are supremely flawed technically and commercially (spoken as a part and believer of the sector)
Evanivitch said:
I think given the current costs of connecting North Sea wind farms there's value in using the underutilised connectivity in South Wales. There's a 400V connection to Pembroke gas and the now closed Aberthaw, offering easy land connectivity on a part of the country that otherwise lacks significant wind generation (often, when wind is high the supposed regional carbon intensity of South Wales is significantly higher than elsewhere). Having wind generation far removed from North Sea weather patterns certainly offers some diversity (and pragmatically some security) in supply.
I agree with that logic, but a floating wind assembly port is not a click of the fingers, and depending on the pipeline of work it will support, for decades to comeFloating wind is still largely unattainable at any practical price point and whilst the hope for many countries and locations still not viable, in volume, competitively
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