The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain

[Sylvaforever]

"If France increases demand by electrifying all road vehicles rapidly (in addition to any increasing demands from other directions) and at the same time cuts its nuclear base load capacity whilst adopting laws that would mean no fossil fuels would be allowed under any circumstances, they will have to do something pretty dramatic with renewables on land (if they eschew Offshore - have they got any viable sites with large potential?) and do it quickly."




vive la revolution!

[rovermorris999]

I was reading about Musk's plan for south Australia and the thing that struck me was, according to the article I read, the battery installation can run at full chat for only 80 minutes. Is that really the answer?

[mondeoman]

rovermorris999 said:

I was reading about Musk's plan for south Australia and the thing that struck me was, according to the article I read, the battery installation can run at full chat for only 80 minutes. Is that really the answer?

Of course it is, because "renewables".

[rovermorris999]

mondeoman said:

Of course it is, because "renewables".

Praise be!

[babatunde]

I read articles like this
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/08/climate/rooftop...

[i]In a 2015 study, he called clean energy policies “the single greatest emerging threat” to the electric power grid./i]

It gives me hope, that we aren't doomed to kill ourselves so that rich people can get richer, if they stop consumers selling back into the grid then home storage becomes even more viable, if Utilities in the "freest market" /s are scared of renewables, then something is obviously going right.

As more and more of us install Solar panels at home and work the centralised model of power generation for everyone becomes obsolete (there will still be demand for that from industry & some comsumers) but as households install more and more local power the utilities role will become more and more geared to balancing power supply, hence no need for new power plants even though demand grows.



IMO the future of power generation, increasing % produced, stored and consumed at point of production, utilities balancing demand and supply across Grid supplying high density & heavy commercial users, while coal & gas generating plants fall out of favor due to cost and legislation.

[rodericb]

rovermorris999 said:

mondeoman said:

Of course it is, because "renewables".

Praise be!

I've seen the light!


or i will, for 80 minutes.

[LongQ]

babatunde said:

I read articles like this
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/08/climate/rooftop...

[i]In a 2015 study, he called clean energy policies “the single greatest emerging threat” to the electric power grid./i]

It gives me hope, that we aren't doomed to kill ourselves so that rich people can get richer, if they stop consumers selling back into the grid then home storage becomes even more viable, if Utilities in the "freest market" /s are scared of renewables, then something is obviously going right.

As more and more of us install Solar panels at home and work the centralised model of power generation for everyone becomes obsolete (there will still be demand for that from industry & some comsumers) but as households install more and more local power the utilities role will become more and more geared to balancing power supply, hence no need for new power plants even though demand grows.



IMO the future of power generation, increasing % produced, stored and consumed at point of production, utilities balancing demand and supply across Grid supplying high density & heavy commercial users, while coal & gas generating plants fall out of favor due to cost and legislation.

Maybe depends where you live and how much sun you see.

Buying your backup connection to the grid and paying for the supply connection installation might become very expensive.

A few years ago my dual fuel bills saw gas as quite inexpensive and electricity as expensive.

Then gas started to replace coal as electricity generating fuel and so the price of gas went up, especially after the North Sea supplies became relatively depleted and gas had to be brought into the EU from Russia and other places.

On the advice I received for next years costs gas increases a little but electricity by a large amount. I not that this seems to coincide with the closure of most of the UK coal sourced generation and the increase of the wind and solar despite the apparent percentage of production still be small and intermittent.

One gets the impression that with renewables, despite the lack of fuel costs, we pay for everything twice in order to guarantee the supply continuity that the modern world needs to avoid catastrophes.

Edited by LongQ on Sunday 9th July 18:32

[babatunde]

LongQ said:

Maybe depends where you live and how much sun you see.......


One gets the impression that with renewables, despite the lack of fuel costs, we pay for everything twice in order to guarantee the supply continuity that the modern world needs to avoid catastrophes.

Generally and specifically with Solar panels and Battery storage, it's the upfront cost that's high.

As for supply continuity, surely a million and 1 generating stations (residential homes) are going to be more resilient than a single generating plant. Even in the middle of winter a basic solar system will still produce some power (energy source is light not heat) so worst case scenario households would have to prioritise usage, compared to a grid only solution this is by far superior.

No one is saying that the existing grid would become useless just that it would be utilised differently, ditto power plants.

[Ali G]

If there is a proposed migration to electric vehicles with presumed overnight charging, then localised solar panels will be utterly useless for this purpose.

It is also doubtful that off-grid power generation through renewable sources would be considered appropriate for the majority of the population, particularly for inner-city conurbations.

[s2art]

babatunde said:

. Even in the middle of winter a basic solar system will still produce some power (
.

But how much power? Producing a few Watts is neither here nor there.

[KrissKross]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Why don't we just stop being the world's mug and do what everyone else is doing and go coal crazy.



India alone would blow the 1.5C warming limit (if the fake science and BS temperature record was worth a bean).

So why even bother?

Especially when the BBC reports the 'death of coal' and China as the world's saviour for shelving plans for a mere 100 (only because their economy stalled a bit) - you can see how dishonest the propaganda is.

Correct, we are being taken for mugs whilst China will burn car tyres to keep cheap industry going. The place is out of control and I have seen it first hand.

The solution is to either hugely tax or ban the import of China made products.

[silentbrown]

s2art said:

But how much power? Producing a few Watts is neither here nor there.

It's about 25% of the summer output, I believe? Shorter days, more cloud cover and lower sun angles all impact it (although in commercial installations I guess is possible to adjust for sun angle)

[s2art]

silentbrown said:

s2art said:

But how much power? Producing a few Watts is neither here nor there.

It's about 25% of the summer output, I believe? Shorter days, more cloud cover and lower sun angles all impact it (although in commercial installations I guess is possible to adjust for sun angle)

Right. And that might be optimistic for the north where snow cover is more likely. at times. So any significant solar power generation fed into the grid undergoes a huge seasonal variation, and whats worse is that it is at its lowest contribution when the need is highest. The implication is that traditional power stations will be needed to fill the gap in winter but would be idling during summer. And that means high electricity prices.

[LongQ]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

s2art said:

silentbrown said:

s2art said:

But how much power? Producing a few Watts is neither here nor there.

It's about 25% of the summer output, I believe? Shorter days, more cloud cover and lower sun angles all impact it (although in commercial installations I guess is possible to adjust for sun angle)

Right. And that might be optimistic for the north where snow cover is more likely. at times. So any significant solar power generation fed into the grid undergoes a huge seasonal variation, and whats worse is that it is at its lowest contribution when the need is highest. The implication is that traditional power stations will be needed to fill the gap in winter but would be idling during summer. And that means high electricity prices.

But.... when Solar is the lowest, winter, Wind is the highest.
A balance.

Can you show us some numbers on that Paddy? A comparison to demand would be nice too. Ideally at, say, 5 minute intervals but maybe half hourly would suffice.

[s2art]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

s2art said:

silentbrown said:

s2art said:

But how much power? Producing a few Watts is neither here nor there.

It's about 25% of the summer output, I believe? Shorter days, more cloud cover and lower sun angles all impact it (although in commercial installations I guess is possible to adjust for sun angle)

Right. And that might be optimistic for the north where snow cover is more likely. at times. So any significant solar power generation fed into the grid undergoes a huge seasonal variation, and whats worse is that it is at its lowest contribution when the need is highest. The implication is that traditional power stations will be needed to fill the gap in winter but would be idling during summer. And that means high electricity prices.

But.... when Solar is the lowest, winter, Wind is the highest.
A balance.

Nope, during winter there can be long periods of little or no wind. Again we will need conventional plants and again lots of solar means idling plants in summer. Hence high priced.

[Ali G]

Further nonsense from the wind power lobby group in search of yet greater expenditure in a self-serving exercise at the expense of the general public

[s2art]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Jog on back to the political thread then.

I agree, winter 'can' have prolonged periods of low wind.
Often during high pressure periods.
Sunny ones

For solar in winter short daylight hours, low angle of sun. A small fraction of what is generated during summer. The problem is insurmountable. The UK is simply not a good fit for solar in any quantity.

[Ali G]

Proof of concept would be at the very least a nice to have before significant public monies are spent on a novel concept

[LongQ]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Jog on back to the political thread then.

I agree, winter 'can' have prolonged periods of low wind.
Often during high pressure periods.
Sunny ones

So, assuming that correlation consistently holds true, how much solar generation capacity would be required to power the basic requirements of the UK on a cold and windless night?

[markcoznottz]

Ali G said:

Further nonsense from the wind power lobby group in search of yet greater expenditure in a self-serving exercise at the expense of the general public

Cameron's family make ££££ from wind farms, cleggs wife is on the board of a wind turbine company. Hmmmmn