The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
LongQ said:
That's a bit of a challenge given that much of the expected 3 to 4 billion increase in world population during the next 80 years is projected to occur in Africa.
Maybe migration solves the problem? It would have a very old historic tradition to support such a concept.
Self-righteous metropolitan greens already know the solution for developing nations with more people in real poverty than the UK has Maybe migration solves the problem? It would have a very old historic tradition to support such a concept.
PS
You have to suspect that the cartoonist had read Prof Deepak Lal's comments before getting down to some sketching. Lal's commentary is based around a similar context, possibly more India than Africa but his remarks go wider than that.
O/T but not O/T.
You have to suspect that the cartoonist had read Prof Deepak Lal's comments before getting down to some sketching. Lal's commentary is based around a similar context, possibly more India than Africa but his remarks go wider than that.
I already posted in a PH thread back in 2005 and others this commentary on a lecture by Prof Deepak Lal which said:
In his inaugural Julian Simon Lecture at the Liberty Institute in Delhi, Prof Lal made a spirited attack on the new cultural imperialism of international greens and their local networks. Professor Lal likened the green movement to a secular religion filling the void created in the west by the retreat of faith in traditional religions. Its aim: to create a new "white man's burden" and impose its values on the world. The Prof added that in his view this new imperialism must be resisted as its false claim is to save the environment, but its practical effects will be ruinous.
O/T but not O/T.
turbobloke said:
It seems we in the "developed" nations are catching up with that concept quite rapidly.
Edited by LongQ on Friday 9th February 14:40
turbobloke said:
PS
You have to suspect that the cartoonist had read Prof Deepak Lal's comments before getting down to some sketching. Lal's commentary is based around a similar context, possibly more India than Africa but his remarks go wider than that.
O/T but not O/T.
In continuation it nows seems plastic waste, which I have long thought has been ignored as was NOx due to the furor about CO2, has now become of interest to the news media because it is being turned into a new 'holy' crusade.You have to suspect that the cartoonist had read Prof Deepak Lal's comments before getting down to some sketching. Lal's commentary is based around a similar context, possibly more India than Africa but his remarks go wider than that.
I already posted in a PH thread back in 2005 and others this commentary on a lecture by Prof Deepak Lal which said:
In his inaugural Julian Simon Lecture at the Liberty Institute in Delhi, Prof Lal made a spirited attack on the new cultural imperialism of international greens and their local networks. Professor Lal likened the green movement to a secular religion filling the void created in the west by the retreat of faith in traditional religions. Its aim: to create a new "white man's burden" and impose its values on the world. The Prof added that in his view this new imperialism must be resisted as its false claim is to save the environment, but its practical effects will be ruinous.
O/T but not O/T.
I'll admit that being areligious I have a personal bias against causes that start to use dogmatic language to push 'the truth' and movements that become unwilling to consider any solutions other than their's. I'm more than happy to accept reasoned and proven arguments towards the use of renewable* energy sources, but when it becomes a cross between Gaia worship and evangelical pocket lining I dismiss it.
* It isn't really renewable, more inexhaustible for most practical intents and of course while the supply rate is not infinite the replenishment rate is relatively high. Technically fossil fuel is renewable, the supply rate is very high, but the replenishment rate is so slow as to be non-existant for practical purposes.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
LongQ said:
turbobloke said:
It seems we in the "developed" nations are catching up with that concept quite rapidly.
Edited by LongQ on Friday 9th February 14:40
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23536914
Certainly a better contribution than simply snide comments from certain quarters on the plight of the africans
Will Greenpeace, WWF, FoE, et al, be able to reconcile their need for energy generation with the idea of covering the Serengeti with solar panels and wind farms.
In fact so far as I can tell from the available wind speed maps and the Lapeenranta assessment, wind is not a particularly helpful source of energy in the central areas of Africa.
Of course it may be that the potential has simply not been measured because no one is as yet very interested.
Defining and solving the technical challenge is only part of the potential approaching problem. If the human trait of "groupism" or "tribalism" cannot be addressed within a generation its influence, being particularly strong in Africa still despite recent de-colonialisation, could be a problem. That is something that is only just about managed in the so called developed world after several hundred years of attempted aggregations, so it is hardly going to be easy to enforce broad cooperation on a rapidly expanding population (should that happen) in an area with long and active tribal traditions.
It's just possible that a good solid reliable energy supply might make it possible in some way. Where that reliable supply, 24 hours a day 7 days a week, might come from in the absence of fossil fuels or suitable location for nuclear developments is not obvious. The traditional animal dung and charcoal route (both locally produced) seems not to be acceptable.
If I want light during the day I would be happiest with a window of some sort. Or a sky light.
On the other hand maybe we can get the plastic bottle zealots to collect loads of bottles from the industrialised countries and send them to the less industrialised countries to be re-cycled into daytime house running lights. That would solve 2 problems would it not?
But it begs the question - why have they got access to large plastic bottles but not windows?
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Why don’t you have a read up and see if you can work it out for yourself.
Pumped storage is the only proven means to store large amounts of energy to be readily accessible for the generation of electricity. For the UK, if we exclude nuclear as per "The Beam", base the calcs on the major unreliable (wind), seven day lull as per graph below, 2:1 safety factor to reduce the risk of grid collapse, allow a 10% minimum utilisation ratio, then I arrive at approx 1400 Dinorwigs on the back of my envelope. Perhaps £2billion per Dinorwig at 2018 construction costs, £2.8trillion. Will need to add a few £billion for modifications to the existing grid, might even have to find some more mountains.
All that appears to be happening is massive amounts of money will need to be spent to make renewables work,costs that will be passed on to the consumer,
This week on the local news there was an article on the return of steel making to Redcar,not large scale, specialist steel, one of the concerns raised was electricity costs, I wonder how many jobs renewables will cost in the end that will not be talked about.
This week on the local news there was an article on the return of steel making to Redcar,not large scale, specialist steel, one of the concerns raised was electricity costs, I wonder how many jobs renewables will cost in the end that will not be talked about.
PRTVR said:
All that appears to be happening is massive amounts of money will need to be spent to make renewables work,costs that will be passed on to the consumer,
This week on the local news there was an article on the return of steel making to Redcar,not large scale, specialist steel, one of the concerns raised was electricity costs, I wonder how many jobs renewables will cost in the end that will not be talked about.
Hopefully peak renewables is at hand, until the total wasted is known we can get an idea from existing studies.This week on the local news there was an article on the return of steel making to Redcar,not large scale, specialist steel, one of the concerns raised was electricity costs, I wonder how many jobs renewables will cost in the end that will not be talked about.
Verso Economics - their study of the negative impact from UK policy to synthesise green jobs found that 3.7 real jobs were lost for every green one created in the UK as a whole.
Prof Calzada of King Juan Carlos University in Madrid - renewable energy initiatives have destroyed 2.2 real jobs for every new green job created.
Real jobs are unlike unreliables jobs which are based on climate fairytales, subsidies and pretend output, e.g 'plated capacity' ho ho ho.
In answer to the question, when an approx total for greenblobjobs is known, multiply by 2.2 (approx lower bound) and 3.7 (approx upper bound) to get a range for the 'jobs cost' referred to.
Faithful followers in shock can contact Verso Economics / King Juan Carlos Uni to put them right via the power of pure belief.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
PRTVR said:
So you think that high energy cost have no impact on high energy industries, an interesting viewpoint, would you like to expand on this ?
Have you viewed the TVCA Masterplan for the SSI site and the more recent interest in new businesses and investment in the SSI site ?It’s going to employ thousands.
Some renewables but read the ambitions for the regeneration of the toxic site.
Steel manufacturing is over. Not because of Energy prices. Let it go....
Why does everyone lambast Wind Power as from the dark ages but seem to think Coal a power generation and making Steel is the future in tuis country. Misty eyes, only.
, I was over in Norway chatting to a guy, he worked in aluminium smelting, he was saying lots of companies were setting up in Norway, cheap reliable electricity was the reason given, in Northumberland Alcan shut down when they had to shut their coal fired power station,
I do not care how we produce electricity as long as it's reliable and cheap, if that means coal so be it.
How much government money is available for the SSI site, might have something to do with jobs.
There is hydro powered aluminium smelting operation in the UK. It is small scale and requires the highest mountain the UK has to offer, and a lot of rain (the latter is not in short supply)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-is...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-is...
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
PRTVR said:
My original comment was regarding the cost of things that may be needed to make renewables work, every company is penalised by high electricity prices, reversely low electricity prices increase jobs,
, I was over in Norway chatting to a guy, he worked in aluminium smelting, he was saying lots of companies were setting up in Norway, cheap reliable electricity was the reason given, in Northumberland Alcan shut down when they had to shut their coal fired power station,
I do not care how we produce electricity as long as it's reliable and cheap, if that means coal so be it.
How much government money is available for the SSI site, might have something to do with jobs.
NO. No it wasn't. You said :, I was over in Norway chatting to a guy, he worked in aluminium smelting, he was saying lots of companies were setting up in Norway, cheap reliable electricity was the reason given, in Northumberland Alcan shut down when they had to shut their coal fired power station,
I do not care how we produce electricity as long as it's reliable and cheap, if that means coal so be it.
How much government money is available for the SSI site, might have something to do with jobs.
PRTVR said:
All that appears to be happening is massive amounts of money will need to be spent to make renewables work,costs that will be passed on to the consumer,
This week on the local news there was an article on the return of steel making to Redcar,not large scale, specialist steel, one of the concerns raised was electricity costs, I wonder how many jobs renewables will cost in the end that will not be talked about.
Redcar Steel industry has been on its knees for a decade - limping from one incarnation to the other - and with absolutely fThis week on the local news there was an article on the return of steel making to Redcar,not large scale, specialist steel, one of the concerns raised was electricity costs, I wonder how many jobs renewables will cost in the end that will not be talked about.
k all to do with Renewables, nor its closure.As for 'costs to the consumer'..... this have been covered to infinity and the argument that it is remarkably cheaper than Nuclear (paid for by pixies and unicorns?)
As for the Rnewables causing net job losses ... its growing year on year - the boys in the Oilfields are the ones worried -and thats due to the barrel price.
you keep posted about ideas that will make renewables work, batteries ,weights in a mine shaft etc, none of this is needed for a conventional power station,
just look at the last week's power output for wind, most of the time it was well below 5gw, come to the weekend when we don't need as much electricity it picked up its game and was up over 9 gw,
I don't think wind should be given special treatment, it should be treated the same as all generation types, if that means the backup of whatever type is included in their price so be it, it would make for a more honest system, if you say wind turbines are a cheaper way of generating electricity it should be able to manage this easily.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Lego are also big fans :
Danish toy manufacturer Lego Group has sourced 100% of its electricity from renewables,
Total output from the investments by Lego in renewables now exceeds the energy consumed at all its factories, stores and offices globally, the company said.
They aren't quite the same thing though are they, unless they have a storage system and can distribute from their renewables to all of their premises too?Danish toy manufacturer Lego Group has sourced 100% of its electricity from renewables,
Total output from the investments by Lego in renewables now exceeds the energy consumed at all its factories, stores and offices globally, the company said.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
PRTVR said:
you keep posted about ideas that will make renewables work, batteries ,weights in a mine shaft etc, none of this is needed for a conventional power station
Is Batteries at Drax a juxtaposition for you ?
"PLANS to re-power two of the remaining coal-fired generators at Drax will go on show later this month.
As reported, the regional giant, responsible for eight per cent of the nation’s electricity, is looking to switch to gas, as well as install what could be one of the largest batteries in the world.
If the plans go ahead in their entirety, the development would include two combined-cycle gas turbines (CCGTs) which would also be capable of operating as rapid response gas power plants in open-cycle mode, with a combined capacity of up to 3,600 megawatts (MW) of electricity as well as battery storage of up to 200MW."
http://humberbusiness.com/news/transformational-pl...
PRTVR said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
PRTVR said:
you keep posted about ideas that will make renewables work, batteries ,weights in a mine shaft etc, none of this is needed for a conventional power station
Is Batteries at Drax a juxtaposition for you ?
"PLANS to re-power two of the remaining coal-fired generators at Drax will go on show later this month.
As reported, the regional giant, responsible for eight per cent of the nation’s electricity, is looking to switch to gas, as well as install what could be one of the largest batteries in the world.
If the plans go ahead in their entirety, the development would include two combined-cycle gas turbines (CCGTs) which would also be capable of operating as rapid response gas power plants in open-cycle mode, with a combined capacity of up to 3,600 megawatts (MW) of electricity as well as battery storage of up to 200MW."
http://humberbusiness.com/news/transformational-pl...
t tonne of cash converting a perfectly sound power station to run on imported wood chips (!), then , when that fails due to economics , convert it again to ccgt and batteries, wasting another st tonne of money. Just who pays for all this fkwittery? And who is going to pay to convert it back to coal in 5 yrs time?What is the load demand profile for rapid transit systems (I wonder)?
The London Underground must be quite different to the East Coast Mainline, which I assume is all electric?
And what demand will the electrification of the GWR line out of Paddington add?
Battery storage has legs but is still in its infancy & is eye-wateringly expensive, comparatively speaking. Well, the high-tech stuff is.
The London Underground must be quite different to the East Coast Mainline, which I assume is all electric?
And what demand will the electrification of the GWR line out of Paddington add?
Battery storage has legs but is still in its infancy & is eye-wateringly expensive, comparatively speaking. Well, the high-tech stuff is.
Harry Biscuit said:
Battery storage has legs but is still in its infancy & is eye-wateringly expensive, comparatively speaking. Well, the high-tech stuff is.
But is not the problem with batteries the fact that they have a relatively short life, they will need to be replaced in 5 to 10 years at considerable cost and this cost is ongoing as long as they are in use.But hey it's only money we all like higher electricity prices don't we ?
PRTVR said:
But is not the problem with batteries the fact that they have a relatively short life, they will need to be replaced in 5 to 10 years at considerable cost and this cost is ongoing as long as they are in use.
But hey it's only money we all like higher electricity prices don't we ?
who says they'll need to be replaced? thats unlikely, these are not your phone batteries.But hey it's only money we all like higher electricity prices don't we ?
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