The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain

[V8 Fettler]

wst said:

V8 Fettler said:

EV range is currently at the right order of magnitude to achieve 1000 miles within the near future. Battery storage for the grid is currently several orders of order magnitude lower than would be required to provide meaningful battery support for the grid.

What is the point of a 1000 mile battery in something that can be topped up every night? You'd lose efficiency lugging the 75% of the battery, that you use once a year, around.

Hmm...

Rental range-extender batteries?

You're assuming that every EV owner can charge their EV every night. How does that work for those that have no off-street parking?

There are several ways to increase range, not just increased battery capacity.

[V8 Fettler]

JD said:

Of interest; there has been no coal burned for power generation for 55 hours and counting, which once this period comes to an end will represent the longest period without coal burning since the last one… which was last week at 55 hours total.

These renewables really aren’t working are they? I expect my lights to not be working when I get in due to this.

We were a few days away from running out of gas during the recent short spell of chilly weather, where were the unreliables when they were really needed? Coal saved the day, again.

[98elise]

V8 Fettler said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

V8 Fettler said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

This is getting painful.

There are discussions on here how mass 'localised' batteries via the home will allow the ebb and flow of power storage to smooth out the generation demand.
There are also talks on this thread that it is becoming increasingly clear in the last 12 months that Battery storage is the actual future for the grid on the whole.

Then there are folks on here that say that the Western Australia battery achieves sweet fk all
(after they get their ABC learning Abacus out and correlate their back of fag packet calcs)
We have established however the Australian Battery does exactly what it says on the tin and a success in doing the job it has been tasked to do.

There are folks on here that say Batteries are not feasible - due to cost and scaleability.
You've since come out and said that the 'mass storage' solution (top sentences) won't work because EV's will be 1,000 miler batteries and no one will plug them in.

I don't believe for one minute the market wants, or the economics in a car purchase or lease will support a 1,000mile battery (in a truck - perhaps, but again unlikely - it is not needed) however to break the concept of localised Home storage you would rather propel the fallacy of a 1,000mile EV


Which in itself would ironically suggest the leaps and bounds of the battery and the rapid cost reduction.


So which is it?

(1) Battery performance will increase four fold from today and drop by 75% too to make a 1,000 mile EV ?

(2) Or Batteries are st and too expensive to prop up the Grid?

Why does battery performance need to increase four fold to achieve a 1000 mile EV?

What has to drop by 75%?

EV range is currently at the right order of magnitude to achieve 1000 miles within the near future. Battery storage for the grid is currently several orders of order magnitude lower than would be required to provide meaningful battery support for the grid.

Currently EV's are good for circa 250miles a charge.
Prices of good EV's are expensive at purchase price - largely due to battery costs. If you are looking to increase capacity (see above) you will inevitably increase this cost too.

So your entire reasoning for the 'home grid' support was that at a wave of the hand folks will be driving around in EV's with 1,000 mile range - that we have also discussed and 'unrequired'.

You've previously made it obvious that you're not an engineer, and so it continues. Several ways to increase range, e.g. add lightness, improve aerodynamics, increase motor efficiency, reduce rolling losses, increase battery capacity.

The reality is that the unreliablists want to inflict short range vehicles on car owners with all the associated infrastructure costs and inconvenience in an attempt to support the unreliable operation of wind/solar etc.

Historical data shows increases in EV range, the increases are not going to level out in the near future




https://electrek.co/2017/12/26/average-electric-ca...

There is also charging on the move using a road based pick up (a bit like the 3rd rail). It's only in pilot form at the moment but sections of motorway electrified would mean long distances could be covered charging and driving.

[rolando]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Why are you thinking I’m straight lines?

Solar power has both hugely improved in efficiency, and reduced in cost.
Why think ‘big battery’ rather than how to harvest free energy in solar panel swathed cars.
Charge - albeit slowly- as you drive. That’s the ‘free’ range extender. The free charge crawling in traffic, parked at the supermarket

I'm absolutely pi$$ing myself laughing and thinking how I might have got home last night in an EV reliant on solar panels to top up the batteries. A far more practical solution to tow a trailer with a stand-by diesel generator

[rolando]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

rolando said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Why are you thinking I’m straight lines?

Solar power has both hugely improved in efficiency, and reduced in cost.
Why think ‘big battery’ rather than how to harvest free energy in solar panel swathed cars.
Charge - albeit slowly- as you drive. That’s the ‘free’ range extender. The free charge crawling in traffic, parked at the supermarket

I'm absolutely pi$$ing myself laughing and thinking how I might have got home last night in an EV reliant on solar panels to top up the batteries. A far more practical solution to tow a trailer with a stand-by diesel generator

Home last night? so the car was sat out in daylight all day before you got in it to drive home.

And I think You are a Liar.

Think what you fking like. You haven't a clue as to what I was doing yesterday, both during the day and after the sun went down. I'm just glad I can get into my car and fill up on demand in the matter of a few minutes. Life's too short to have to stop for hours to top up a flat battery.

By the way, I accept your mention that you are a graduate mechanical engineer … but in my day, when I was studying electrical and mechanical engineering (HNC), we were also educated in the use of the English language so that we could communicate in a professional manner rather than pour out gibberish as you often do so eloquently

[Evanivitch]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Home last night? so the car was sat out in daylight all day before you got in it to drive home.

Solar panels on cars to recharge traction batteries are a complete dead end.

The additional weight and complexity will never be bought out in a benefit because cars are simply not parked in suitable places and at suitable orientations for efficient capture of solar energy. We'd have to rebuild entire cities and suburbs to provide south facing parking spots and reduce shadowing.

Therefore all you're doing is adding weight (high up, requiring additional strengthening) and impacting aerodynamic considerations.

[98elise]

Rostfritt said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Why are you thinking I’m straight lines?

Solar power has both hugely improved in efficiency, and reduced in cost.
Why think ‘big battery’ rather than how to harvest free energy in solar panel swathed cars.
Charge - albeit slowly- as you drive. That’s the ‘free’ range extender. The free charge crawling in traffic, parked at the supermarket

I think having a solar roof and bonnet would make some sense for any EV or hybrid. Probably won't provide a noticeable amount of power when driving but would give a few percent if parked up all day. Every little helps! Could even put power back into the grid when the car is full.

Having a Prius, it would be good to get in and have the battery on green each time.

It would produce a tiny amount. 50% of the panels would be facing the wrong way, and the other 50% would be at an inefficient angle.

[Evanivitch]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Evanivitch said:

Solar panels on cars to recharge traction batteries are a complete dead end.

You don't think it is coming though ?

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/21/solar-powered...

https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/this-self...

No, and quite frankly neither does the article.

IMechE said:

He stressed that solar power was unlikely to ever be enough to power cars on its own, even if the technology improves. However, he pointed out that the average car travels less than the 30km a day limit that the Sion could theoretically be charged from the sun. "In a hot country in southern Europe, you could leave it in the sun all day and that could give you enough power for the average journey," he said.

So in ideal conditions you might get 30km. The rest of the time you're carrying around dead weight in what is already a small car.

[wst]

V8 Fettler said:

You're assuming that every EV owner can charge their EV every night. How does that work for those that have no off-street parking?

There are several ways to increase range, not just increased battery capacity.

"Electric lamps? By the roadside? But there's no infrastructure there to get them power! What will the man who takes the paraffin around and lights them with a burning stick do?"

Paddy, solar is a dead end for car-based installation. At best you're looking at 1kW per square meter, unless you divert the Earth's orbit or install big lenses above streets to produce horrendously dangerous focal points at about car-roof level And then you have the problem of all cars being the same colour because they're solar panels on wheels, instead of... cars.

[Evanivitch]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Evanivitch said:

So in ideal conditions you might get 30km. The rest of the time you're carrying around dead weight in what is already a small car.

I never meant as a single source to charge the battery, but to bump along the charge, extend the range as the day goes by. Clearly a 'proper' charge is required.

Anyway. This is all for another thread - we only got here because of the offering to the Grid in stability of using Home and Car Batteries...

In ideal conditions it would be capable of that. Ideal conditions being a sunny, unshaded, low latitude.

Everywhere else it is just dead weight.

[andy43]

Evanivitch said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Evanivitch said:

So in ideal conditions you might get 30km. The rest of the time you're carrying around dead weight in what is already a small car.

I never meant as a single source to charge the battery, but to bump along the charge, extend the range as the day goes by. Clearly a 'proper' charge is required.

Anyway. This is all for another thread - we only got here because of the offering to the Grid in stability of using Home and Car Batteries...

In ideal conditions it would be capable of that. Ideal conditions being a sunny, unshaded, low latitude.

Everywhere else it is just dead weight.

Tesla 3 will have 180w solar roof panels. Original Nissan Leaf had an optional solar spoiler, enough to run a fan to keep the car cool when parked in summer, but sod all else.

Tesla/Pana panel here : https://electrek.co/2017/02/28/tesla-model-3-solar...

Chances of harvesting enough juice to drive home are, erm, limited by current technology to put it politely

[98elise]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

98elise said:

It would produce a tiny amount. 50% of the panels would be facing the wrong way, and the other 50% would be at an inefficient angle.

Which driving around would alter?

No, for every panel facing the sun, one would be facing the wrong way, no matter which way the car is facing. The angles to the horizon would not change much.

Ideally panels need to be around 40-45 degrees (ie pointing at the sun), and the majority of a cars surface is closer to 0 or 90.

[Evanivitch]

andy43 said:

Evanivitch said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Evanivitch said:

So in ideal conditions you might get 30km. The rest of the time you're carrying around dead weight in what is already a small car.

I never meant as a single source to charge the battery, but to bump along the charge, extend the range as the day goes by. Clearly a 'proper' charge is required.

Anyway. This is all for another thread - we only got here because of the offering to the Grid in stability of using Home and Car Batteries...

In ideal conditions it would be capable of that. Ideal conditions being a sunny, unshaded, low latitude.

Everywhere else it is just dead weight.

Tesla 3 will have 180w solar roof panels. Original Nissan Leaf had an optional solar spoiler, enough to run a fan to keep the car cool when parked in summer, but sod all else.

Tesla/Pana panel here : https://electrek.co/2017/02/28/tesla-model-3-solar...

Chances of harvesting enough juice to drive home are, erm, limited by current technology to put it politely

For a fan yeah. But we were talking traction batteries. Elon Musk has pushed his engineers to integrate solar for traction but even then the answer was not to use them.

Bear in mind my car (Ampera) uses 0.5kW without AC on, a 180W panel isn't even going to run AC or heating. Certainly not sufficient to keep a dog in the car.

[rolando]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

JD said:

Of interest; there has been no coal burned for power generation for 55 hours and counting, which once this period comes to an end will represent the longest period without coal burning since the last one… which was last week at 55 hours total.

These renewables really aren’t working are they? I expect my lights to not be working when I get in due to this.

76 hours in the end : http://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/24/uk...

76 hours when more than three quarters supplied by nuclear and burning gas & wood chips. Just what the green blob ordered.

[V8 Fettler]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

V8 Fettler said:

You've previously made it obvious that you're not an engineer, and so it continues.

I have not - Graduated back in the day as a Mechanical Engineer.
Anything else you want to make up ?

V8 Fettler said:

Several ways to increase range, e.g. add lightness, improve aerodynamics, increase motor efficiency, reduce rolling losses, increase battery capacity.

The reality is that the unreliablists want to inflict short range vehicles on car owners with all the associated infrastructure costs and inconvenience in an attempt to support the unreliable operation of wind/solar etc.

Oh you just have.

The "reality" ? More like you your tin foil hat view.
Is there a single manufacturer out there intending on limiting or reducing the range of their own EV product ?

And then.......You believe it is all to help leverage the infrastructure changes ?

The Car manufacturers are limiting the engineering and supply to the public to simply push green energy ? Don't be so stupid.

A degree does not a competent engineer make. Did not your degree course teach you the value of unemotional, logical thought processes as a key part of design? Did not your degree course teach you the importance of communicating coherently rather than ranting pointlessly?

The manufacturers will typically attempt to manufacture whatever will make a profit.

The concept of short range EVs with the requirement to plug into the grid for hours on end on daily basis demonstrably supports those who favour batteries to maintain grid stability.

The concept of long range EVs with the requirement to occasionally plug into the grid does not support those who favour batteries to maintain grid stability.

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

V8 Fettler said:

You're assuming that every EV owner can charge their EV every night. How does that work for those that have no off-street parking?

There are several ways to increase range, not just increased battery capacity.

Google "street lamp EV charging"

I've searched for "street lamp EV charging calculations", the results are sparse, but then a logical approach supported by calculations is frequently avoided by the unreliablists.

This link indicates two cars per street lamp https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/internet/en/news... . How does that design work for a street such as this:



?

[andymadmak]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

battery stuff

But what are those batteries intended to do? From everything I have read they are there simply to provide a smoothing of the grid and better frequency management. They are NOT there to provide energy when the renewables go offline due to darkness/calm days etc.
Every battery in the country could not keep the lights on for more than a few minutes. Even if 50% of the grid was provided by Nuclear, you STILL could not keep the lights on by relying on the batteries. The batteries are a total red herring, the requirement for which is only created because of the characteristics of renewable power generation! You're trying to spin a necessity born of the problems of renewable energy generation as a benefit/answer to the problem of intermittency - and it simply isn't!

I get that you think we should all use less energy, so therefore we will need to generate less
I get that you think that better management of the grid will mean that we will have to generate less
I get that batteries can help with smoothing some of the issues caused by renewables
BUT you still have never answered as far as I can see what happens when we shut down all the coal and gas stations in favour of windmills, and we get an extended cold spell with low winds?

When you can answer that one with a sensible, cogent argument, then I'll start taking what you say seriously. Pretending that batteries are in any way a fix at any time in the next 10 years (whilst we are closing fossil plants) is not that answer

[Cold]

rolando said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

JD said:

Of interest; there has been no coal burned for power generation for 55 hours and counting, which once this period comes to an end will represent the longest period without coal burning since the last one… which was last week at 55 hours total.

These renewables really aren’t working are they? I expect my lights to not be working when I get in due to this.

76 hours in the end : http://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/24/uk...

76 hours when more than three quarters supplied by nuclear and burning gas & wood chips. Just what the green blob ordered.

On the same day that this was announced British Gas informed me that my annual bill would be going up by £47.67 from May 29th. Probably just a coincidence.

[wst]

V8 Fettler said:

I've searched for "street lamp EV charging calculations", the results are sparse, but then a logical approach supported by calculations is frequently avoided by the unreliablists.

This link indicates two cars per street lamp https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/internet/en/news... . How does that design work for a street such as this:



?

"I can't make one solution fit all situations ergo that solution is 100% useless."

[LongQ]

wst said:

V8 Fettler said:

I've searched for "street lamp EV charging calculations", the results are sparse, but then a logical approach supported by calculations is frequently avoided by the unreliablists.

This link indicates two cars per street lamp https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/internet/en/news... . How does that design work for a street such as this:



?

"I can't make one solution fit all situations ergo that solution is 100% useless."

So you just change the situations until they fit a solution that may be viable.

If you eliminate personal vehicle ownership many problems would be solved and, from a government point of view, many benefits could accrue, Information Systems cock ups permitting.

It might be the only way that any future personal travel remains affordable for the masses - assuming energy costs manage to be contained at some point in the near future. In that respect we probably need to keep an eye on how Germany is doing.

[Evanivitch]

Cold said:

On the same day that this was announced British Gas informed me that my annual bill would be going up by £47.67 from May 29th. Probably just a coincidence.

If you're stupid enough to be a British Gas customer...