The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Yeah guys ‘blade ice’ ..... really ?
You may have that on the small ‘individual’ farmers 500kw units but it is a non issue in the Power Generation of GB aspect.
And as for the Turbines shut down in strong winds.... the same applies
‘Proper’ ones don’t , but feather the angle of approach - or do we get many hurricanes here in GB that I don’t know about?
At the moment there is no evidence provided that the drop in wind-power is due to a lack of wind, or of anything else. If you are going to argue with fundamentalists who disagree with you, you need to provide credible evidence that this drop in wind production was not a limitation that can't be defeated by adding more technology.
On that note, knowing that conventional power stations are slow to respond to demand changes, might they have just been running at higher power (in the anticipation of issues with wind) so the wind turbine production was scaled back artificially and used to fill in gaps?
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
so please give the data for the Armaggedon you refer to that is know in the parts as :
"If we experience another winter like 1947 or 1963 "
What was the Met Data and Solar data for these abominable world stopping winters.
If we had long winters with heavy snow and deep freezes would that have an effect - e.g ice build up on blades stopping wind generation. Just after never having had it happen before twice this year I was on delayed planes out of Manchester and Leeds whilst overnight snow was removed or the "Props" de-iced" which seemed to happen in relatively warm days - e.g. not having to defrost the car windscreen on the way tot he airport."If we experience another winter like 1947 or 1963 "
What was the Met Data and Solar data for these abominable world stopping winters.
Have any turbines been damaged / taken out of service to snow / cold?
Ali G said:
rolando said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
That Daily Mail article was actually mention on the podium earlier and as one can imagine - proved to be hand wringing poor journalism
Tell me, what is poor about the article?
te.Gary C said:
Ali G said:
rolando said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
That Daily Mail article was actually mention on the podium earlier and as one can imagine - proved to be hand wringing poor journalism
Tell me, what is poor about the article?te.
rolando said:
Gary C said:
Ali G said:
rolando said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
That Daily Mail article was actually mention on the podium earlier and as one can imagine - proved to be hand wringing poor journalism
Tell me, what is poor about the article?te.
silentbrown said:
V8 Fettler said:
Unreliablist attempting to re-write history, that's a surprise.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jan/05/coldest...
Well, we know it was cold. but you've offered no useful data about how that would affect renewable generation. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jan/05/coldest...
We're probably at the early learning stage, easy steps needed.
1) Currently, for electricity generation in the UK, we primarily rely on gas to replace wind when wind fails.
2) The recent chilly spell demonstrated that we would run out of gas somewhere around week three of chilly weather https://www.utilitywise.com/2018/03/06/gas-deficit...
3) The coldest part of the winter of 1947 extended for about eight weeks.
4) The coldest part of the winter of 1963 extended for about twelve weeks.
5) If we have a repeat of the winter of 1947 or 1963 and we run out of gas after week 3, how will we generate sufficient electricity?
wst said:
V8 Fettler said:
wst said:
V8 Fettler said:
wst said:
V8 Fettler said:
How does the "no coal" solution work if we have a repeat of the winters of 1947 or 1963?
I didn't realise the wind stopped when it was cold. Those pesky meteorologists with their "wind chill factors" are making it up again.
Do you know how the "no coal" solution would work if we have a repeat of the winters of 1947 or 1963?
Or was the drop in generation caused by blade icing, or maybe they need to be a certain temperature for myriad other reasons?
You can't look at the wrong data and infer the one statistic from them that supports your prejudices.
Reference to prolonged settled spell with high pressure in charge during the second half of the January 2017 https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/summaries/...
What wrong data?
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
silentbrown said:
Well, we know it was cold. but you've offered no useful data about how that would affect renewable generation.
Exactly. Is that the problem? The Cold?The articles say how the country was battered by harsh weather and blizzards....
Not dissimilar to the Beast from the East ? (Remember the prediction on this thread of the doom that would bring - incorrectly?)
Great times for energy production onshore and offshore.
So can you find the data for the environmental conditions in those winters, in the zones I mentioned please, to compound your Armageddon nightmare for us, so we can answer your sworn solitary statement for all aspects of this thread.
In fact I am sure I saw you reply in a thread about BMW M3’ saying ‘but what about the winter of ......”
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
And he ^^^ is an industry expert.
Over and above that :
I though the para : "Wind power was all the rage among Nazis, many of whom shared the party's fanatical commitment to the environment. Other big fans included Hitler's favourite commando, Otto Skorzeny." to be tremendously valuable in a journalistic perspective.
"
This is the proposed location of a giant wind farm being developed by the Dutch firm TenneT.
"
bks too. Statoil, SSE, Innogy. Nowt to do with Tennet.
then "With a man-made island to house its substations, and many hundreds of turbines, it could theoretically have a capacity as huge as 30GW (gigawatts), though because of its low productivity it would still only generate energy equal to about a third of the UK's needs, and would contribute little, or nothing, to security of supply.
"
The penny drops. He is thinking of the concept of Tennet building a offshore island as an O&M base.:
https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/the-1-5-bn-pl...
Also known as fantasy.
If the Journo meant what he said - that would be an island of 8660 km2, or maybe something more feasible ? Four individual islands of between 500 km2 and 600 km2 each.
More feasible and likely guys?
Or bks too ?
"Electricity produced by onshore wind costs twice as much as conventional gas-fired electricity generation; offshore wind three times as much."
Also untrue
aaaaaah and then good old Professor Hughes ? He that Turbobloke often recites. We have already dispatched with him on these threads as being an author from bygone era and bks.
"Professor Gordon Hughes, of the University of Edinburgh, and his colleagues showed in a recent study published by the Global Warming Policy Foundation think-tank, that the capital costs of new offshore wind farms do not appear to be falling and indeed appear to be still rising as wind projects move into deeper waters."
That was in the 2012 paper. The one TB bleats on about turbines failing in 50% life - with data taken only up to 2011. Not sure relevant to the headline in the article is it ?
A nice nod to the 'killing of bats and birds though'
"in Spain alone, one survey estimated, up to 330 birds and 670 bats are killed per turbine per year; a survey in Sweden put the bird death toll as high as 895 per turbine. The wind industry denies these estimates, which are hard to confirm, not least because the areas below the turbines where the bodies might be found are often jealously guarded.
"
Jealously guarded? WTF. Oh and neither Spain or Sweden (save the singular demonstrator on the cliff in Spain, and the 11 Vestas units in Kareham) have any Offshore Turbines - the subject matter if you recall.
Blade erosion is mentioned :
"In February this year, Danish offshore wind operator Ørsted admitted it might have to repair the blades of more than 600 turbines, after just a few years on the water, at a cost of about £1million per turbine.
And the bigger they are, the worse this is going to get, for all sorts of reasons."
With the last bit being untrue. The bigger they are the more modern they are and how they have now been re-engineered so do not suffer the same way.
The rest of it is typical Daily Mail bks politics..
Fab how he managed to again get the Nazi's in at the end though.
Top journalism.
FFS.
Your mates at he Offshore Windmill jamboree didn't help much did they? Over and above that :
I though the para : "Wind power was all the rage among Nazis, many of whom shared the party's fanatical commitment to the environment. Other big fans included Hitler's favourite commando, Otto Skorzeny." to be tremendously valuable in a journalistic perspective.
"
This is the proposed location of a giant wind farm being developed by the Dutch firm TenneT.
"
b
ks too. Statoil, SSE, Innogy. Nowt to do with Tennet.then "With a man-made island to house its substations, and many hundreds of turbines, it could theoretically have a capacity as huge as 30GW (gigawatts), though because of its low productivity it would still only generate energy equal to about a third of the UK's needs, and would contribute little, or nothing, to security of supply.
"
The penny drops. He is thinking of the concept of Tennet building a offshore island as an O&M base.:
https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/the-1-5-bn-pl...
Also known as fantasy.
If the Journo meant what he said - that would be an island of 8660 km2, or maybe something more feasible ? Four individual islands of between 500 km2 and 600 km2 each.
More feasible and likely guys?
Or b
ks too ? "Electricity produced by onshore wind costs twice as much as conventional gas-fired electricity generation; offshore wind three times as much."
Also untrue
aaaaaah and then good old Professor Hughes ? He that Turbobloke often recites. We have already dispatched with him on these threads as being an author from bygone era and b
ks. "Professor Gordon Hughes, of the University of Edinburgh, and his colleagues showed in a recent study published by the Global Warming Policy Foundation think-tank, that the capital costs of new offshore wind farms do not appear to be falling and indeed appear to be still rising as wind projects move into deeper waters."
That was in the 2012 paper. The one TB bleats on about turbines failing in 50% life - with data taken only up to 2011. Not sure relevant to the headline in the article is it ?
A nice nod to the 'killing of bats and birds though'
"in Spain alone, one survey estimated, up to 330 birds and 670 bats are killed per turbine per year; a survey in Sweden put the bird death toll as high as 895 per turbine. The wind industry denies these estimates, which are hard to confirm, not least because the areas below the turbines where the bodies might be found are often jealously guarded.
"
Jealously guarded? WTF. Oh and neither Spain or Sweden (save the singular demonstrator on the cliff in Spain, and the 11 Vestas units in Kareham) have any Offshore Turbines - the subject matter if you recall.
Blade erosion is mentioned :
"In February this year, Danish offshore wind operator Ørsted admitted it might have to repair the blades of more than 600 turbines, after just a few years on the water, at a cost of about £1million per turbine.
And the bigger they are, the worse this is going to get, for all sorts of reasons."
With the last bit being untrue. The bigger they are the more modern they are and how they have now been re-engineered so do not suffer the same way.
The rest of it is typical Daily Mail b
ks politics.. Fab how he managed to again get the Nazi's in at the end though.
Top journalism.
FFS.
Two questions
1. Please repost in comprehendible English.
2. Why is the rest of it "Daily Mail b
ks politics"?And btw - it would be nice to have a little many more facts, figures and proven tech before heading forth on the good ship 'Wishful Thinking' powered by rocking horse st, guided by leprechauns riding unicorns.
Did I say that outloud?
Edited: The lost art of irony has been lost
t, guided by leprechauns riding unicorns.Did I say that outloud?
Edited: The lost art of irony has been lost
Edited by Ali G on Thursday 26th April 16:22
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
V8 Fettler said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
silentbrown said:
Well, we know it was cold. but you've offered no useful data about how that would affect renewable generation.
Exactly. Is that the problem? The Cold?The articles say how the country was battered by harsh weather and blizzards....
Not dissimilar to the Beast from the East ? (Remember the prediction on this thread of the doom that would bring - incorrectly?)
Great times for energy production onshore and offshore.
So can you find the data for the environmental conditions in those winters, in the zones I mentioned please, to compound your Armageddon nightmare for us, so we can answer your sworn solitary statement for all aspects of this thread.
In fact I am sure I saw you reply in a thread about BMW M3’ saying ‘but what about the winter of ......”
The was agreeing with him and going on to explain the holes in your infamous broken record.
V8 Fettler said:
3) The coldest part of the winter of 1947 extended for about eight weeks.
4) The coldest part of the winter of 1963 extended for about twelve weeks.
5) If we have a repeat of the winter of 1947 or 1963 and we run out of gas after week 3, how will we generate sufficient electricity?
Based on the huge assumption that we receive no gas imports during that period.4) The coldest part of the winter of 1963 extended for about twelve weeks.
5) If we have a repeat of the winter of 1947 or 1963 and we run out of gas after week 3, how will we generate sufficient electricity?
Which is a big fat unfounded assumption.
Ali G said:
Risk management - we're all working under the 'just in case/precautionary' principle at the mo.
What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
So why are we assuming that people will continue to ship us coal?What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
People keep talking about building huge new coal reserves but no one is putting their hands up to have it next door. How open an opencast mine? Any takers?
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