The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
Ali G said:
Risk management - we're all working under the 'just in case/precautionary' principle at the mo.
What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
So why are we assuming that people will continue to ship us coal?What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
People keep talking about building huge new coal reserves but no one is putting their hands up to have it next door. How open an opencast mine? Any takers?
Not the greatest fan of opencast mining either - but contracts are contracts and should be enforceable legally via many means (including performance bonds).
Ali G said:
Evanivitch said:
Ali G said:
Risk management - we're all working under the 'just in case/precautionary' principle at the mo.
What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
So why are we assuming that people will continue to ship us coal?What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
People keep talking about building huge new coal reserves but no one is putting their hands up to have it next door. How open an opencast mine? Any takers?
Not the greatest fan of opencast mining either - but contracts are contracts and should be enforceable legally via many means (including performance bonds).
What contracts allow open cast mines and coal tips to be enforced on communities?
Ali G said:
Evanivitch said:
Ali G said:
Risk management - we're all working under the 'just in case/precautionary' principle at the mo.
What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
So why are we assuming that people will continue to ship us coal?What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
People keep talking about building huge new coal reserves but no one is putting their hands up to have it next door. How open an opencast mine? Any takers?
Not the greatest fan of opencast mining either - but contracts are contracts and should be enforceable legally via many means (including performance bonds).
Evanivitch said:
Ali G said:
Evanivitch said:
Ali G said:
Risk management - we're all working under the 'just in case/precautionary' principle at the mo.
What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
So why are we assuming that people will continue to ship us coal?What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
People keep talking about building huge new coal reserves but no one is putting their hands up to have it next door. How open an opencast mine? Any takers?
Not the greatest fan of opencast mining either - but contracts are contracts and should be enforceable legally via many means (including performance bonds).
What contracts allow open cast mines and coal tips to be enforced on communities?]
)Paddy_N_Murphy said:
I'm calling it:
V8 Fettler, Ali G, Rolando - your persistent borish, stalking, non contributing posts on this thread really are self centred and a disappointment for others who either contribute or read this thread.
Please do bugger off.
I am sure we can have a poll made to validate this.
And I am wondering whether to ban you for persistent foul language, abuse of fellow posters, blatant misrepresentation of the performance of the industry which you have a vested interest in.V8 Fettler, Ali G, Rolando - your persistent borish, stalking, non contributing posts on this thread really are self centred and a disappointment for others who either contribute or read this thread.
Please do bugger off.
I am sure we can have a poll made to validate this.
But it's far more fun to have you around to rip the s
t out of!Post away PnM!
Evanivitch said:
V8 Fettler said:
3) The coldest part of the winter of 1947 extended for about eight weeks.
4) The coldest part of the winter of 1963 extended for about twelve weeks.
5) If we have a repeat of the winter of 1947 or 1963 and we run out of gas after week 3, how will we generate sufficient electricity?
Based on the huge assumption that we receive no gas imports during that period.4) The coldest part of the winter of 1963 extended for about twelve weeks.
5) If we have a repeat of the winter of 1947 or 1963 and we run out of gas after week 3, how will we generate sufficient electricity?
Which is a big fat unfounded assumption.
To bring out the important elements of https://www.utilitywise.com/2018/03/06/gas-deficit...
Article dated 06/03/2018
utilitywise said:
With high demand across Europe, supplies via flexible pipelines from Belgium and the Netherlands fell significantly. Through most of February, these pipelines were providing around 60mcm of supply a day. However, since the ‘Beast from the East’ began to bite, this fell closer to 30mcm.
utilitywise said:
Medium range storage was sending out at over 70mcm a day to meet the higher demand. Storage began the week 65% full with just under 1,000mcm in storage. The week saw 500mcm of this stock used and if this continues at the same rate, supplies will be empty by the end of this week (9 March).
utilitywise said:
There is now only 220mcm of gas stored at the UK’s three LNG terminals (Grain, Dragon, and South Hook), yet during the cold snap sendout peaked at over 80mcm/day. Were that rate to continue, LNG stocks would be empty within a week. This gas will have to be replenished but there are currently no tankers booked for the UK.
utilitywise said:
There is enough gas around to make it through the current cold snap, but if it is prolonged or there is a further spell of cold later in March, this could be very troublesome.
On the basis of the above and on the basis of current coal-fired capacity / coal stockpiles, the chances of the UK maintaining any reasonable energy security in the event of a repeat of the winters of 1947 or 1963 are remote.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
I'm calling it:
V8 Fettler, Ali G, Rolando - your persistent borish, stalking, non contributing posts on this thread really are self centred and a disappointment for others who either contribute or read this thread.
Please do bugger off.
I am sure we can have a poll made to validate this.
Is being persistent not permitted in your world?V8 Fettler, Ali G, Rolando - your persistent borish, stalking, non contributing posts on this thread really are self centred and a disappointment for others who either contribute or read this thread.
Please do bugger off.
I am sure we can have a poll made to validate this.
Evanivitch said:
Ali G said:
Evanivitch said:
Ali G said:
Risk management - we're all working under the 'just in case/precautionary' principle at the mo.
What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
So why are we assuming that people will continue to ship us coal?What can happen, will happen, mitigate the crap out of it ever happening and sod the cost (although it may never happen).
Didn't you get the memo?
People keep talking about building huge new coal reserves but no one is putting their hands up to have it next door. How open an opencast mine? Any takers?
Not the greatest fan of opencast mining either - but contracts are contracts and should be enforceable legally via many means (including performance bonds).
What contracts allow open cast mines and coal tips to be enforced on communities?
Being a dinosaur, I can recall the winter of 1963, it was desperate.
Ali G said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
I'm calling it:
V8 Fettler, Ali G, Rolando - your persistent borish, stalking, non contributing posts on this thread really are self centred and a disappointment for others who either contribute or read this thread.
Please do bugger off.
I am sure we can have a poll made to validate this.
And I am wondering whether to ban you for persistent foul language, abuse of fellow posters, blatant misrepresentation of the performance of the industry which you have a vested interest in.V8 Fettler, Ali G, Rolando - your persistent borish, stalking, non contributing posts on this thread really are self centred and a disappointment for others who either contribute or read this thread.
Please do bugger off.
I am sure we can have a poll made to validate this.
But it's far more fun to have you around to rip the s
t out of!Post away PnM!
V8 Fettler said:
If we rely on coal as the short term solution (6x DRAX should be about right), then we can stockpile at the coal-fired power stations, If our intention is to survive a repeat of 1947 or 1963 in reasonably good shape then we should aim for a stockpile sufficient for twenty weeks without re-supply.
Being a dinosaur, I can recall the winter of 1963, it was desperate.
How big is 20 weeks of stockpile and where does it go? How does that compare to current reserves?Being a dinosaur, I can recall the winter of 1963, it was desperate.
V8 Fettler said:
On the basis of the above and on the basis of current coal-fired capacity / coal stockpiles, the chances of the UK maintaining any reasonable energy security in the event of a repeat of the winters of 1947 or 1963 are remote.
The way I read it it was a failure by the industry to plan. A combination of a lack of storage and a lack of long term forecast to order additional gas from overseas.So why is coal the answer and not additional gas?
Evanivitch said:
V8 Fettler said:
If we rely on coal as the short term solution (6x DRAX should be about right), then we can stockpile at the coal-fired power stations, If our intention is to survive a repeat of 1947 or 1963 in reasonably good shape then we should aim for a stockpile sufficient for twenty weeks without re-supply.
Being a dinosaur, I can recall the winter of 1963, it was desperate.
How big is 20 weeks of stockpile and where does it go? How does that compare to current reserves?Being a dinosaur, I can recall the winter of 1963, it was desperate.
Evanivitch said:
V8 Fettler said:
On the basis of the above and on the basis of current coal-fired capacity / coal stockpiles, the chances of the UK maintaining any reasonable energy security in the event of a repeat of the winters of 1947 or 1963 are remote.
The way I read it it was a failure by the industry to plan. A combination of a lack of storage and a lack of long term forecast to order additional gas from overseas.So why is coal the answer and not additional gas?
A lot easier to stockpile coal than gas, plus the UK sits on trillions of tons of coal. To reduce transmission losses, gas should be burnt at the point of use by the consumer wherever possible, although that probably doesn't mean a return to gas lighting. The supply of gas for domestic heating, hot water and cooking should never be placed at risk, particularly when electricity can be generated by other means.
StanleyT said:
Have any turbines been damaged / taken out of service to snow / cold?
Apologies Paddy if you missed this in your purdah of other users.Could you whilst you are at the conference as the above please?
Also how did we cope in those previous two winters for electricity generation as we didn't really have many nukes, or not so much for power generation at the time anyway?
V8 Fettler said:
We've already covered this on this thread. Concrete pads are quite good for storing coal.
And again we've covered the fact that coal stockpiles have a huge impact to communities, both through their health and the visual impact.So again, where are we stockpiling this vast (100x) increase in coal stockpiles?
V8 Fettler said:
The "near miss" arose due to incompetent strategic management.
A lot easier to stockpile coal than gas, plus the UK sits on trillions of tons of coal. To reduce transmission losses, gas should be burnt at the point of use by the consumer wherever possible, although that probably doesn't mean a return to gas lighting. The supply of gas for domestic heating, hot water and cooking should never be placed at risk, particularly when electricity can be generated by other means.
Or we could invest in community heat pump initiatives and have a vastly more efficient and flexible approach to domestic heating and energy use.A lot easier to stockpile coal than gas, plus the UK sits on trillions of tons of coal. To reduce transmission losses, gas should be burnt at the point of use by the consumer wherever possible, although that probably doesn't mean a return to gas lighting. The supply of gas for domestic heating, hot water and cooking should never be placed at risk, particularly when electricity can be generated by other means.
Evanivitch said:
V8 Fettler said:
We've already covered this on this thread. Concrete pads are quite good for storing coal.
And again we've covered the fact that coal stockpiles have a huge impact to communities, both through their health and the visual impact.So again, where are we stockpiling this vast (100x) increase in coal stockpiles?
V8 Fettler said:
The "near miss" arose due to incompetent strategic management.
A lot easier to stockpile coal than gas, plus the UK sits on trillions of tons of coal. To reduce transmission losses, gas should be burnt at the point of use by the consumer wherever possible, although that probably doesn't mean a return to gas lighting. The supply of gas for domestic heating, hot water and cooking should never be placed at risk, particularly when electricity can be generated by other means.
Or we could invest in community heat pump initiatives and have a vastly more efficient and flexible approach to domestic heating and energy use.A lot easier to stockpile coal than gas, plus the UK sits on trillions of tons of coal. To reduce transmission losses, gas should be burnt at the point of use by the consumer wherever possible, although that probably doesn't mean a return to gas lighting. The supply of gas for domestic heating, hot water and cooking should never be placed at risk, particularly when electricity can be generated by other means.
Community heat pumps? Where are the calcs? Costs? Has the model ever worked on a large scale?
Coal has a long track record of reliably generating electricity. However, it's clearly not the long term solution for the UK, that has to be fusion.
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