The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
LongQ said:
http://euanmearns.com/beyond-the-spin-of-green-ene...
There is, of necessity, a lot of technical reference in the piece and of course the technical terms and acronyms to support it. Nevertheless I think it is fundamentally readable and the salient points can be discovered without having to fully understand the details.
Figure 4 is interesting in that respect.
TLA and ETLA overload, but interesting!There is, of necessity, a lot of technical reference in the piece and of course the technical terms and acronyms to support it. Nevertheless I think it is fundamentally readable and the salient points can be discovered without having to fully understand the details.
Figure 4 is interesting in that respect.
Re figure 4, Are there fundamental limitations to battery technology that prevent it responding in (say) a 10ms timeframe, or is it just that the software and control systems haven't been optimised for this?
silentbrown said:
LongQ said:
http://euanmearns.com/beyond-the-spin-of-green-ene...
There is, of necessity, a lot of technical reference in the piece and of course the technical terms and acronyms to support it. Nevertheless I think it is fundamentally readable and the salient points can be discovered without having to fully understand the details.
Figure 4 is interesting in that respect.
TLA and ETLA overload, but interesting!There is, of necessity, a lot of technical reference in the piece and of course the technical terms and acronyms to support it. Nevertheless I think it is fundamentally readable and the salient points can be discovered without having to fully understand the details.
Figure 4 is interesting in that respect.
Re figure 4, Are there fundamental limitations to battery technology that prevent it responding in (say) a 10ms timeframe, or is it just that the software and control systems haven't been optimised for this?
(Second comment at time of writing)
http://euanmearns.com/beyond-the-spin-of-green-ene...
and 5th comment at time of writing. (By "Hairs")
http://euanmearns.com/beyond-the-spin-of-green-ene...
These, in particular from "Hairs", seem to spell out the challenges that may exist in a grid with a serious, or indeed complete, lack of inertial frequency options.
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of equipment to smooth & regulate the grid waveform forwards of the main contactor and converters don't you?
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??
Now if you want to do something positive [
] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" ...
....
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??
Now if you want to do something positive [
] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" .......
Kccv23highliftcam][b said:
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of equipment to smooth & regulate the grid waveform forwards of the main contactor and converters don't you?
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??[/b]
Now if you want to do something positive [ ] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" ...
....
Wind turbines stabilise the grid? Where did you get that from? Is it one of those ironic posts?You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??[/b]
Now if you want to do something positive [
] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" .......
Kccv23highliftcam said:
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of equipment to smooth & regulate the grid waveform forwards of the main contactor and converters don't you?
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??
Now if you want to do something positive [ ] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" ...
....
Crikey - so how did Elon manage to convince South Australia to buy his battery? Did they no know that they already had the solution?You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??
Now if you want to do something positive [
] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" .......
Before we can "fix" the power cartels (assuming they can be fixed) we need to "fix" the politicians.
So, which ones to start with?
And I think your 14% seems a little too precise in this context at this time yet also far too low.
LongQ said:
Kccv23highliftcam said:
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of equipment to smooth & regulate the grid waveform forwards of the main contactor and converters don't you?
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??
Now if you want to do something positive [ ] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" ...
....
Crikey - so how did Elon manage to convince South Australia to buy his battery? Did they no know that they already had the solution?You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??
Now if you want to do something positive [
] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" .......
Before we can "fix" the power cartels (assuming they can be fixed) we need to "fix" the politicians.
So, which ones to start with?
And I think your 14% seems a little too precise in this context at this time yet also far too low.
1. Wholesale gas and electricity costs - 41%
2. Electricity and gas distribution network costs - 28%
3. Government obligations and schemes - 12%
4. Operational costs - 8%
5. Our profit - 6%
6. VAT on energy - 5%
V8 Fettler said:
Kccv23highliftcam][b said:
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of equipment to smooth & regulate the grid waveform forwards of the main contactor and converters don't you?
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??[/b]
Now if you want to do something positive [ ] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" ...
....
Wind turbines stabilise the grid? Where did you get that from? Is it one of those ironic posts?You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??[/b]
Now if you want to do something positive [
] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" .......
https://www.energy.siemens.com/hq/en/power-transmi...
Ali G said:
I suspect that there will be trouble ahead for Hinkley C given the extraordinary level of animosity demonstrated by a particular demographic towards all things nuclear.
That pressure vessel will have to be proven beyond all normal means to have 100% integrity - and even then will be challenged.
https://theecologist.org/2016/sep/15/hinkley-c-nuc...
Birds coming home to roost.That pressure vessel will have to be proven beyond all normal means to have 100% integrity - and even then will be challenged.
https://theecologist.org/2016/sep/15/hinkley-c-nuc...
The Ecologist said:
The French and the Chinese may be celebrating the UK's decision to press ahead with the Hinkley C 'nuclear white elephant', writes Oliver Tickell. But the deal is a disaster for the UK, committing us to overpriced power for decades to come, and to a dirty, dangerous, insecure dead end technology. Just one silver lining: major economic, legal and technical hurdles mean it still may never be built.
Kccv23highliftcam said:
Ali G said:
I suspect that there will be trouble ahead for Hinkley C given the extraordinary level of animosity demonstrated by a particular demographic towards all things nuclear.
That pressure vessel will have to be proven beyond all normal means to have 100% integrity - and even then will be challenged.
https://theecologist.org/2016/sep/15/hinkley-c-nuc...
Birds coming home to roost.That pressure vessel will have to be proven beyond all normal means to have 100% integrity - and even then will be challenged.
https://theecologist.org/2016/sep/15/hinkley-c-nuc...
The Ecologist said:
The French and the Chinese may be celebrating the UK's decision to press ahead with the Hinkley C 'nuclear white elephant', writes Oliver Tickell. But the deal is a disaster for the UK, committing us to overpriced power for decades to come, and to a dirty, dangerous, insecure dead end technology. Just one silver lining: major economic, legal and technical hurdles mean it still may never be built.
Decades of dithering and energy policy mismanagement culminating in a hair-brained scheme devised by activists with no concept of practicalities or what actually works.
Kccv23highliftcam said:
V8 Fettler said:
Kccv23highliftcam][b said:
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of equipment to smooth & regulate the grid waveform forwards of the main contactor and converters don't you?
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??[/b]
Now if you want to do something positive [ ] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" ...
....
Wind turbines stabilise the grid? Where did you get that from? Is it one of those ironic posts?You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??[/b]
Now if you want to do something positive [
] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" .......
https://www.energy.siemens.com/hq/en/power-transmi...
Kccv23highliftcam's youtube link said:
Energy control is becoming increasingly important to help balance fluctuations in wind and solar energy.
Fluctuations can be a b*ggar when you're trying to stablise a gridKccv23highliftcam said:
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of equipment to smooth & regulate the grid waveform forwards of the main contactor and converters don't you?
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??
Now if you want to do something positive [ ] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" ...
....
what do you mean by 'stabilise' ? Frequency is only one component, large rotating machines do far more to 'stabilise' the grid frequency. it can't be denied that output is variable from wind generators.You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??
Now if you want to do something positive [
] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" .......
A wind turbine with a cage induction gen running asynchronous will produce.a perfect synced 50hz waveform, but that isn't grid 'stabilisation'
rolando said:
Carwyn Jones (head waffler in the Welsh Assembly) promise 200 million if they build the lagoon at Swansea.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-44373...
Wish he would hurry up and leave the building.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Look at the beauty of it......
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44363366
A balanced portfolio as I have said before is the solution..... And everyone is Ok with the Government using Taxpayers money, aren't you all ?
"
The government has confirmed it is considering putting taxpayers' money into a project to build a new nuclear power station at Wylfa in North Wales.
The National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee were critical of that deal and there was considerable pressure to significantly reduce the cost of power from the Wylfa plant. It's expected it will come in around £77 per megawatt hour, compared to £92.50/MWh for Hinkley.
"
This, as I understand it, is a development that replaces the Magnox plant that shut down in 2015.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44363366
A balanced portfolio as I have said before is the solution..... And everyone is Ok with the Government using Taxpayers money, aren't you all ?
"
The government has confirmed it is considering putting taxpayers' money into a project to build a new nuclear power station at Wylfa in North Wales.
The National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee were critical of that deal and there was considerable pressure to significantly reduce the cost of power from the Wylfa plant. It's expected it will come in around £77 per megawatt hour, compared to £92.50/MWh for Hinkley.
"
The original Wylfa was, from memory, entirely supplying a nearby aluminium smelting plant.
When for many reasons the Magnox owners needed to commit to redevelopment and price commitments for a replacement plant there were so many unknowns in Energy policy that they could not do so with any certainty. That meant the smelting plant could not commit to any upgrading either. As I recall the owner simply moved production to other plants.
Coincidentally around the time that Anglesea Aluminium was shutting down a large new smelting plant was built and commissioned in Dubai.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglesey_Aluminium
The plant was, apparently, "mothballed" in 2009 with a view to re-opening with its own Biomass fueled generator in 2016.
However none of the links I have found to the original Rio Tinto and partners web sites seem to provide any updates on the Mothballed status or otherwise
On the other hand the BBC, in 2016, offered this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wale...
and there is a further consideration here;
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2016...
It appears that the plan discounts Aluminium Smelting and prefers Prawn farming.
For the past year or so the new site Owner - Orthios - has been dismantling the old site buildings.
http://www.orthios.com/news/38-demolition-works-pr...
So, presumably we will soon start to see the regeneration begin.
While we are here Paddy, can you elborate at all on how you envisage a balance portfolio might look?
I'm especially interested in the economics at this point. Unless all participants can make their investments pay they will not be in a position to play (unless there is a feast of subsidies to be fought over.)
Edited by LongQ on Tuesday 5th June 23:00
robinessex said:
What we going to do with the nasty waste it generated? Hope that's been costed into the project.
how much nasty waste is generated in the life of a station ?By which I mean spent fuel.
Ours comes in at about 5000 tonnes which is actually quite a small volume and could, if designed, be kept and stores on site. Once generation is done, and all the ancillary buildings removed, your left with a fairly small, concrete block. It would need to be secured and would be there for many years but in a way, you could argue, most of our waste could stored rather than exhausted up a chimney.
However, we do emit low level amounts of radiation, in the form of water that is generated from the ch4 injected into the reactor gas to control corrosion of the carbon moderator, and some in reactor blowdown. These are very low, but hey your thinking 'he would say that'.
Wylfa, I hope it happens. You can't blame edf for getting the best deal they could, and in a way it's the same as wind, the first to play get the best deal and create the market, the next along tend to get less.
But I won't count any chickens until they start pouring concrete. Edf had the advantage of being current licence holders, new players have quite a long and expensive path to travel, but I hope they make it.
Gary C said:
Once generation is done, and all the ancillary buildings removed, your left with a fairly small, concrete block. It would need to be secured and would be there for many years but in a way, you could argue, most of our waste could stored rather than exhausted up a chimney.
Is that an ironic reference to carbon capture or even the bases of old wind turbines?V8 Fettler said:
Kccv23highliftcam said:
V8 Fettler said:
Kccv23highliftcam][b said:
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of equipment to smooth & regulate the grid waveform forwards of the main contactor and converters don't you?
You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??[/b]
Now if you want to do something positive [ ] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" ...
....
Wind turbines stabilise the grid? Where did you get that from? Is it one of those ironic posts?You DO realise that EVERY wind turbine is stuffed full of converters to actively adjust frequency output to stabilise grid frequency, even when they are not producing, don't you??[/b]
Now if you want to do something positive [
] try doing something about the power cartels that make all our energy 14% more expensive in their efforts to be seen as "responsible" .......
https://www.energy.siemens.com/hq/en/power-transmi...
Kccv23highliftcam's youtube link said:
Energy control is becoming increasingly important to help balance fluctuations in wind and solar energy.
Fluctuations can be a b*ggar when you're trying to stablise a gridhttp://www.wired.co.uk/article/solar-panels-califo...
but seems relevant to your post so I'll do it as a reply.
Not sure its a problem we are likely to face in "sunny" old UK, but in California, their race to add boat loads of solar to the grid is giving them headaches with over-supply. They had to effectively dump 95,000 MWh of leccy because on a very sunny day all the solar flooding the market was a) not needed and b) depressed energy prices which has the knock on effect of hurting the guys who run and invest in the power grid in the pocket.
Wired said:
Then in late May, as the sun beat down and solar energy flooded the state’s grid, plummeting prices provoked the state of California to force renewable energy plants to “throttle back production”. The state ordered the grid operator to dial back, meaning over 95,000 megawatt hours of electricity – an unprecedented amount – went to waste, enough to power 30 million homes for an hour, according to the California Independent System Operator.
The oversupply of solar in California highlights the problems that can arise when municipalities race to meet rightly-ambitious energy targets – such as California’s, which is to generate half its energy from carbon-free sources by 2030. But building more solar capacity, for instance, “adds solar supply even as it reduces demand” for other sources, wrote James Temple in MIT Technology Review.
Without properly integrating and planning for renewable increases, grids are likely to end up with a surfeit. Even with planning, huge challenges arise in trying to store this kind of power, and solar production peaks at midday, the exact time when daytime electricity demand tends to be lowest. At the moment, tempering solar fluctuations with wind provision has not been fine-tuned.
In the end, this drives down energy prices and dis-incentivises companies from deploying further renewables. Many of these utility providers, Frankl explains, have made huge investments in terms of supply, transmission and distribution. The more you put solar in the system, he says, the more peaks are absorbed by on-the-spot provision, and utilities companies start to lose money. This has led to utilities fighting solar, which causes them to lose clients.
I do actually like solar. I think it has a lot of merit and its relatively easy to install and there is plenty of real estate where it can be installed out of sight almost. But I think this does highlight the problems with gung-ho rushing in and a technology that produces its best fruit just when the grid doesn't need it. It clearly needs a lot more thought than was given. The oversupply of solar in California highlights the problems that can arise when municipalities race to meet rightly-ambitious energy targets – such as California’s, which is to generate half its energy from carbon-free sources by 2030. But building more solar capacity, for instance, “adds solar supply even as it reduces demand” for other sources, wrote James Temple in MIT Technology Review.
Without properly integrating and planning for renewable increases, grids are likely to end up with a surfeit. Even with planning, huge challenges arise in trying to store this kind of power, and solar production peaks at midday, the exact time when daytime electricity demand tends to be lowest. At the moment, tempering solar fluctuations with wind provision has not been fine-tuned.
In the end, this drives down energy prices and dis-incentivises companies from deploying further renewables. Many of these utility providers, Frankl explains, have made huge investments in terms of supply, transmission and distribution. The more you put solar in the system, he says, the more peaks are absorbed by on-the-spot provision, and utilities companies start to lose money. This has led to utilities fighting solar, which causes them to lose clients.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
LongQ said:
While we are here Paddy, can you elborate at all on how you envisage a balance portfolio might look?
I'm especially interested in the economics at this point. Unless all participants can make their investments pay they will not be in a position to play (unless there is a feast of subsidies to be fought over.)
To flame the fires again on the thread?I'm especially interested in the economics at this point. Unless all participants can make their investments pay they will not be in a position to play (unless there is a feast of subsidies to be fought over.)
If you have an opinion or some referenced papers or whatever that address how the economics of a balanced portfolio of generation methods could work, either in the current type of market or some future new approach, it would be interesting to discuss it.
If you don't maybe we could all discuss how things might be balanced from an economic point of view. The conclusions might help us to understand whether the cost of supply is going to increase or decrease or stay much the same in what we think of as the foreseeable future.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
The cost of O&G (fluctuations) seem to be widely accepted, versus the fixed numbers elsewhere in the Generation of the grid
Why are folks ok with that ?
I'm not at all sure what you are getting at there but I don't think folks are particularly OK with it. Why are folks ok with that ?
However it would be interesting to consider how the free world market in O&G is influenced by policy decisions about the mix of energy resources.
There are many people around the world now blithely discussing "100% Carbon Free" sustainability without, it seems any clue what such a phrase, if used by them seriously, actually means.
If out "leaders" are not simply stupid or lying and really do believe they can fabricate a "carbon free" world that will support 8 billion people based on technology that "carbon free" was last experienced pre industrial revolution, then they should tell us very precisely how they expect that to be achieved. No ifs, buts, maybes, mights, coulds and miracle discoveries. Just the clear road map form now to then. And then they can tell us how many of the 8 billion people are predicted to exist once they achieve their objectives.
Meanwhile we poor peons can consider what likely mix of energy sources could be cobbled together to would provide consistent and reliable energy at a price that is supportable for both vendor and consumer for whatever expected demand there may be in the future.
Or we could just conclude that the great leaders already know the whole thing is a lost cause and share nothing of consequence with us (indeed encourage us to be entertained by events of no consequence) because they dare not risk disclosing the full extent of the challenge and are either trying to buy time or trying not to move too far from Business As Usual whilst they are still in charge.
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