The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain

[rscott]

alangla said:

Ok, this annoyed me - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45873785 - the article (not sure if it has been edited) does, correctly, state that Scottish Power retail customers will indeed still be getting mixed energy (especially on the non-windy days, presumably) but the company are basically spinning it as look at us, we're all greeny, windy blah blah blah as though they are going to be supplying 100% wind power to retail customers when in reality there will still be plenty of days when they'll be supplying either fossil energy or, particularly given the energy mix in Scotland, buying nuclear power from EDF.

The big thing I don't get is this though - Scottish Power own a decent number of Hydro stations (pretty much all inherited from the SSEB), plus the pumped storage station at Cruachan - why have they shifted this stuff on to Drax? Surely reliable renewable energy, particularly one of the few bits of grid attached storage, would be an asset to the company, especially one that's decided to play the green card?

SSE were questioned about this on R4 yesterday - where very evasive as to why they've bundled hydro into the conventional power plant sale.

[alangla]

rscott said:

alangla said:

Ok, this annoyed me - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45873785 - the article (not sure if it has been edited) does, correctly, state that Scottish Power retail customers will indeed still be getting mixed energy (especially on the non-windy days, presumably) but the company are basically spinning it as look at us, we're all greeny, windy blah blah blah as though they are going to be supplying 100% wind power to retail customers when in reality there will still be plenty of days when they'll be supplying either fossil energy or, particularly given the energy mix in Scotland, buying nuclear power from EDF.

The big thing I don't get is this though - Scottish Power own a decent number of Hydro stations (pretty much all inherited from the SSEB), plus the pumped storage station at Cruachan - why have they shifted this stuff on to Drax? Surely reliable renewable energy, particularly one of the few bits of grid attached storage, would be an asset to the company, especially one that's decided to play the green card?

SSE were questioned about this on R4 yesterday - where very evasive as to why they've bundled hydro into the conventional power plant sale.

Was it definitely SSE? The article I linked is about ScottishPower, SSE (Scottish & Southern Energy, ex-Scottish Hydro/North of Scotland Hydro board) are the larger operator of Scottish Hydro power stations - as far as I know they are holding on to theirs. Any idea roughly what time the interview was? Assume this was on the Today programme

[rscott]

alangla said:

rscott said:

alangla said:

Ok, this annoyed me - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45873785 - the article (not sure if it has been edited) does, correctly, state that Scottish Power retail customers will indeed still be getting mixed energy (especially on the non-windy days, presumably) but the company are basically spinning it as look at us, we're all greeny, windy blah blah blah as though they are going to be supplying 100% wind power to retail customers when in reality there will still be plenty of days when they'll be supplying either fossil energy or, particularly given the energy mix in Scotland, buying nuclear power from EDF.

The big thing I don't get is this though - Scottish Power own a decent number of Hydro stations (pretty much all inherited from the SSEB), plus the pumped storage station at Cruachan - why have they shifted this stuff on to Drax? Surely reliable renewable energy, particularly one of the few bits of grid attached storage, would be an asset to the company, especially one that's decided to play the green card?

SSE were questioned about this on R4 yesterday - where very evasive as to why they've bundled hydro into the conventional power plant sale.

Was it definitely SSE? The article I linked is about ScottishPower, SSE (Scottish & Southern Energy, ex-Scottish Hydro/North of Scotland Hydro board) are the larger operator of Scottish Hydro power stations - as far as I know they are holding on to theirs. Any idea roughly what time the interview was? Assume this was on the Today programme

Sorry, you're right. Was Scottish Power. Not enough coffee yet. It was on Today, between 8:30 and 9.

[alangla]

rscott said:

Sorry, you're right. Was Scottish Power. Not enough coffee yet. It was on Today, between 8:30 and 9.

Found it - it was about 08:45. Yep, sounds like total & utter greenwash from ScottishPower/Iberdrola covering a business decision that wind generation is more profitable than gas/hydro. Sounded like the BBC business bloke had actually done his homework and managed to skewer the ScottishPower chief exec.

[Gary C]

alangla said:

rscott said:

Sorry, you're right. Was Scottish Power. Not enough coffee yet. It was on Today, between 8:30 and 9.

Found it - it was about 08:45. Yep, sounds like total & utter greenwash from ScottishPower/Iberdrola covering a business decision that wind generation is more profitable than gas/hydro. Sounded like the BBC business bloke had actually done his homework and managed to skewer the ScottishPower chief exec.

Ouch.

That wouldn't have happened when my sister was director of corporate communications

[Condi]

V8 Fettler said:

Nothing about the requirement for a robust power system then? Which requires coal-fired because wind is unreliable and we can't stockpile enough gas.

No, because no.

Which bit of 'coal will be gone by 2025, if not sooner' are you struggling to understand?

[V8 Fettler]

Condi said:

V8 Fettler said:

Nothing about the requirement for a robust power system then? Which requires coal-fired because wind is unreliable and we can't stockpile enough gas.

No, because no.

Which bit of 'coal will be gone by 2025, if not sooner' are you struggling to understand?

Are you capable of logical argument?

The gas deficit notice of March 2018 confirms that the existing design of the grid is not robust, but fortunately we had coal-fired to carry us through. How will the design of the grid change by 2025 to permit the end of coal-fired?

[turbobloke]

See under 'remote load limiting / remote brownout / remote blackout'.

Smart!

[Nickgnome]

Just wondering how many kw of Pv we should put on our new south facing flat roof.

Overall about 14m x 12m. Inclination will be 31 deg

I’m thinking 6kw and may be 1kw on the separate garage.

Shouldn’t we all be doing this?

[Toltec]

Nickgnome said:

Just wondering how many kw of Pv we should put on our new south facing flat roof.

Overall about 14m x 12m. Inclination will be 31 deg

I’m thinking 6kw and may be 1kw on the separate garage.

Shouldn’t we all be doing this?

If you live somewhere without a mains power connection or an unreliable one at least then I guess some form of backup generation would be an idea. In some senses PV and batteries is better than a generator as you would get something out of it all of the time rather than sitting there doing nothing most of the time, though the gen would probably be a lot smaller investment.

[With This Staff]

Afraid of the dark?

Lovely!

[PRTVR]

Nickgnome said:

Just wondering how many kw of Pv we should put on our new south facing flat roof.

Overall about 14m x 12m. Inclination will be 31 deg

I’m thinking 6kw and may be 1kw on the separate garage.

Shouldn’t we all be doing this?

It will provide power when you least need it, during the day when you are at work, on a cold winter's night you will be in the same situation as if you didn't have it.

[Condi]

V8 Fettler said:

Are you capable of logical argument?

The gas deficit notice of March 2018 confirms that the existing design of the grid is not robust, but fortunately we had coal-fired to carry us through. How will the design of the grid change by 2025 to permit the end of coal-fired?

I'm very capable of logical argument.

But as the government has written into law that coal stations without carbon capture will not be allowed to operate from 2025, then everyone from the top down is working on the assumption that from 2025 there will be no coal. Repeating the argument 'we need coal' doesnt change the fact there wont be any (unless the government changes their plans) and so you seem to trying to swim against a very strong tide! Or, as some would say, are pissing in the wind.

Anyway, as for how NG see the winter, this contains all the answers you'll need. And you'll like it, coal features quite strongly!

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/sites/eso/files/do...

[Condi]

PRTVR said:

Nickgnome said:

Just wondering how many kw of Pv we should put on our new south facing flat roof.

Overall about 14m x 12m. Inclination will be 31 deg

I’m thinking 6kw and may be 1kw on the separate garage.

Shouldn’t we all be doing this?

It will provide power when you least need it, during the day when you are at work, on a cold winter's night you will be in the same situation as if you didn't have it.

If you have a big hot water tank thats an easy way to store excess power. Get a system which dumps excess energy you're not consuming into an immersion heater and you'll barely need to pay to heat water, even in winter you can often get a few hours.

[Nickgnome]

PRTVR said:

Nickgnome said:

Just wondering how many kw of Pv we should put on our new south facing flat roof.

Overall about 14m x 12m. Inclination will be 31 deg

I’m thinking 6kw and may be 1kw on the separate garage.

Shouldn’t we all be doing this?

It will provide power when you least need it, during the day when you are at work, on a cold winter's night you will be in the same situation as if you didn't have it.

I’m retired, decided to pack up work a few years ago as I’ll be a long time dead.

I already have a thermal store for the U/F heating. Lighting is all LED.

I live in one of the sunniest places in the country up there with Eastborne and Ventnor.

I think battery storage is in the cards but not for a couple of years.

My living room this evening is still at 23 deg. When I get up in the morning it may have dropped to 21. Not had any heating on yet this autumn.

[Nickgnome]

Toltec said:

If you live somewhere without a mains power connection or an unreliable one at least then I guess some form of backup generation would be an idea. In some senses PV and batteries is better than a generator as you would get something out of it all of the time rather than sitting there doing nothing most of the time, though the gen would probably be a lot smaller investment.

You seem to have answered a question I didn’t ask. As it happens I have a 2kw portable generator which we sometimes take on our yacht. Never used it at home though.

[PRTVR]

Condi said:

PRTVR said:

Nickgnome said:

Just wondering how many kw of Pv we should put on our new south facing flat roof.

Overall about 14m x 12m. Inclination will be 31 deg

I’m thinking 6kw and may be 1kw on the separate garage.

Shouldn’t we all be doing this?

It will provide power when you least need it, during the day when you are at work, on a cold winter's night you will be in the same situation as if you didn't have it.

If you have a big hot water tank thats an easy way to store excess power. Get a system which dumps excess energy you're not consuming into an immersion heater and you'll barely need to pay to heat water, even in winter you can often get a few hours.

Morally I have always thought they were wrong,I have a friend who has his detached house on a gated estate, his roof is covered along with water heating panels, he makes enough from the feed in tariff not to have to pay any energy bill during a year, the ones with money are paid by the poor who cannot afford the panels, not an ideal situation.

[dickymint]

Nickgnome said:

Just wondering how many kw of Pv we should put on our new south facing flat roof.

Overall about 14m x 12m. Inclination will be 31 deg

I’m thinking 6kw and may be 1kw on the separate garage.

Shouldn’t we all be doing this?

Well yeh if "we all" had a new 14m x 12m roof (extension?) and a separate garage and a yacht

Thankfully the FIT has been drastically reduced which hopefully will reduce the burden of those in fuel poverty that have no option?

[Nickgnome]

dickymint said:

Well yeh if "we all" had a new 14m x 12m roof (extension?) and a separate garage and a yacht

Thankfully the FIT has been drastically reduced which hopefully will reduce the burden of those in fuel poverty that have no option?

The FIT is not of any particular interest to me as I can source and install much more economically than approved contractors and obviously I will still get approved certification.

Slightly off topic but in my opinion all new houses should be factory built of zero energy with heat recovery. Planning should promote south facing facades and roofs of PVs.

The traditional builder should be nowhere near a house building site and I say this as someone whose career has been in construction.

Fuel poverty is not just a result of power prices but more a factor of abismal housing stock and bad landlords together with successive government decisions on house building and energy efficiency grants.

[Nickgnome]

PRTVR said:

Condi said:

PRTVR said:

Nickgnome said:

Just wondering how many kw of Pv we should put on our new south facing flat roof.

Overall about 14m x 12m. Inclination will be 31 deg

I’m thinking 6kw and may be 1kw on the separate garage.

Shouldn’t we all be doing this?

It will provide power when you least need it, during the day when you are at work, on a cold winter's night you will be in the same situation as if you didn't have it.

If you have a big hot water tank thats an easy way to store excess power. Get a system which dumps excess energy you're not consuming into an immersion heater and you'll barely need to pay to heat water, even in winter you can often get a few hours.

Morally I have always thought they were wrong,I have a friend who has his detached house on a gated estate, his roof is covered along with water heating panels, he makes enough from the feed in tariff not to have to pay any energy bill during a year, the ones with money are paid by the poor who cannot afford the panels, not an ideal situation.

I find that a very strange attitude. I applaud his approach and just wish government would allow a differerent approach toward grants to upgrade housing stock for the less fortunate.