The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
Lots of people should be qualified to answer this.
Of those countries and locations with a significantly higher price than the UK, how many are more foolishly into renewables more than the UK, with resulting pain to the payer?
IIRC the chart was created as a result of the pain level from down under.
Of those countries and locations with a significantly higher price than the UK, how many are more foolishly into renewables more than the UK, with resulting pain to the payer?
IIRC the chart was created as a result of the pain level from down under.
Its always about how you interpret it.....
Tells me our power is cheaper than;
Germany
Spain
Portugal
Almost all of Australia (funny, they use a lot of coal!)
Belgium
Ireland
Italy
(So basically most of our close neighbours)
And we pay only 7% more than the EU average.
What you're also ignoring is that while we pay subsidies for renewable generation (and we also pay subsidies for thermal generation - a point you often ignore), over time those subsidies decrease to almost nothing. Onshore wind is now viable without subsidy, offshore wind CFDs in the last round was set at £56/MW (only just above UK baseload), and the next CFD price might well be set below average UK baseload, if developers participate in the auction at all. Solar is now viable without subsidies as well. The first wind sites are reaching the end of their subsidy payments, and yet the sites continue to generate power, regardless of how cheap the market is.
The UK is a world leader in wind power. The industry maintains thousands of jobs, and the experience, technology, and engineering developed in the UK is now being exported across the world. Think of the subsidy as investment in the economy, if you prefer. Over time the benefit to the economy will outweigh the additional few percent on your electric bill.
Tells me our power is cheaper than;
Germany
Spain
Portugal
Almost all of Australia (funny, they use a lot of coal!)
Belgium
Ireland
Italy
(So basically most of our close neighbours)
And we pay only 7% more than the EU average.
What you're also ignoring is that while we pay subsidies for renewable generation (and we also pay subsidies for thermal generation - a point you often ignore), over time those subsidies decrease to almost nothing. Onshore wind is now viable without subsidy, offshore wind CFDs in the last round was set at £56/MW (only just above UK baseload), and the next CFD price might well be set below average UK baseload, if developers participate in the auction at all. Solar is now viable without subsidies as well. The first wind sites are reaching the end of their subsidy payments, and yet the sites continue to generate power, regardless of how cheap the market is.
The UK is a world leader in wind power. The industry maintains thousands of jobs, and the experience, technology, and engineering developed in the UK is now being exported across the world. Think of the subsidy as investment in the economy, if you prefer. Over time the benefit to the economy will outweigh the additional few percent on your electric bill.
Edited by Condi on Monday 25th February 18:47
Condi said:
.
The UK is a world leader in wind power. The industry maintains thousands of jobs, and the experience, technology, and engineering developed in the UK is now being exported across the world. Think of the subsidy as investment in the economy, if you prefer. Over time the benefit to the economy will outweigh the additional few percent on your electric bill.
Are we not paying for foreign companies to develop off shore wind ? If so how much of the products developed is and will remain UK manufactured ?The UK is a world leader in wind power. The industry maintains thousands of jobs, and the experience, technology, and engineering developed in the UK is now being exported across the world. Think of the subsidy as investment in the economy, if you prefer. Over time the benefit to the economy will outweigh the additional few percent on your electric bill.
Edited by Condi on Monday 25th February 18:47
Condi said:
Its always about how you interpret it.....
Tells me our power is cheaper than;
Germany
Spain
Portugal
Almost all of Australia (funny, they use a lot of coal!)
Belgium
Ireland
Italy
(So basically most of our close neighbours)
And we pay only 7% more than the EU average.
Only Tells me our power is cheaper than;
Germany
Spain
Portugal
Almost all of Australia (funny, they use a lot of coal!)
Belgium
Ireland
Italy
(So basically most of our close neighbours)
And we pay only 7% more than the EU average.
According to ClickEnergy, Allianz and other sources the countries in that Oz chart who are leading the renewables sleepwalk into a nightmare include Denmark, S Australia, Germany and Spain, all more expensive than the UK.
It's presently correct but curious to say the UK is cheaper when our politicians share an ambition to put a stop to that by chasing the fastest sleepwalkers as fast as they can.
turbobloke said:
Only
According to ClickEnergy, Allianz and other sources the countries in that Oz chart who are leading the renewables sleepwalk into a nightmare include Denmark, S Australia, Germany and Spain, all more expensive than the UK.
It's presently correct but curious to say the UK is cheaper when our politicians share an ambition to put a stop to that by chasing the fastest sleepwalkers as fast as they can.
Yes, only. For the average household on a variable tariff that is about £85 per year. For a single person on a fixed tariff its £25. According to ClickEnergy, Allianz and other sources the countries in that Oz chart who are leading the renewables sleepwalk into a nightmare include Denmark, S Australia, Germany and Spain, all more expensive than the UK.
It's presently correct but curious to say the UK is cheaper when our politicians share an ambition to put a stop to that by chasing the fastest sleepwalkers as fast as they can.
Also you're only thinking about the 'now'. In 10 years time, or 20 years time, when the current subsidies are finished all that investment will be producing power a 0 cost. Find me a thermal plant which will do that. Any new investment by then will be viable without subs (as many are already). Already on windy nights power costs are much lower than they would have been 10 years ago, because traditional thermal plant would just have shut down at the low prices. What this will mean is much more volatile prices, which will in turn provide economic incentives to better utilise (and build more) storage. However, the more generation we have with 0 fuel cost, the lower power prices will be when averaged out over time. Consumers will see that benefit in their bills.
PRTVR said:
Are we not paying for foreign companies to develop off shore wind ? If so how much of the products developed is and will remain UK manufactured ?
Erm, yes I guess so. But equally we have the most to gain from the technology, as we have the most wind potential. How much of the product will remain UK manufactured I dont know, but the people and skills are already being exported to other countries. For North Sea and Western Europe offshore installations we already have the manufacturing infrastructure to support it. For markets further afield we are probably too far away for transport to make it worthwhile.
BigMon said:
V8 Fettler said:
To clear what up?
Can you list your qualifications and experience and how it relates to power generation?It's a simple question.
What makes you qualified to argue with Gary C?
Is it now a requirement to be "qualified" to hold a differing opinion to another poster on PH? I can't find reference to this in the PH rules, but I might have missed it. Or is it just something you've made up?
Condi said:
V8 Fettler said:
Condi said:
V8 Fettler said:
How do you know that I don't reconsider my opinion? Are you omnipotent?
Evidence on this thread suggests you don't.Evidence based conclusion.
turbobloke said:
Lots of people should be qualified to answer this.
Of those countries and locations with a significantly higher price than the UK, how many are more foolishly into renewables more than the UK, with resulting pain to the payer?
IIRC the chart was created as a result of the pain level from down under.
The US price should be the benchmark.Of those countries and locations with a significantly higher price than the UK, how many are more foolishly into renewables more than the UK, with resulting pain to the payer?
IIRC the chart was created as a result of the pain level from down under.
V8 Fettler said:
BigMon said:
V8 Fettler said:
To clear what up?
Can you list your qualifications and experience and how it relates to power generation?It's a simple question.
What makes you qualified to argue with Gary C?
Is it now a requirement to be "qualified" to hold a differing opinion to another poster on PH? I can't find reference to this in the PH rules, but I might have missed it. Or is it just something you've made up?
jet_noise said:
What are the thermal generation subsidies?
Capacity Mechanism for large plant. About £1bn this year from memory. Now suspended by the EU, although generally expected to be re-instated, as other EU countries have had their similar systems approved. STOR availability payments for smaller plant. Not so much now, as the STOR contract price for this season is 0, or close to 0, but in previous rounds there was quite a bit of value in the availability payments, regardless of whether the plant was used or not.
Edited by Condi on Tuesday 26th February 11:54
V8 Fettler said:
BigMon said:
V8 Fettler said:
To clear what up?
Can you list your qualifications and experience and how it relates to power generation?It's a simple question.
What makes you qualified to argue with Gary C?
Is it now a requirement to be "qualified" to hold a differing opinion to another poster on PH? I can't find reference to this in the PH rules, but I might have missed it. Or is it just something you've made up?
But when someone who has worked within the power industry explains to you, repeatedly and at length, why your opinion is not correct and you don't accept it then the obvious question is what qualifications and experience do you have to enable you to dismiss what the 'expert' is telling you.
In repeatedly evading the above question you're inadvertently 100% providing the answer.
It's just a real shame that you've pissed off an industry insider to the point where he won't post any more.
V8 Fettler said:
I can.
Is it now a requirement to be "qualified" to hold a differing opinion to another poster on PH? I can't find reference to this in the PH rules, but I might have missed it. Or is it just something you've made up?
No but posters like you, make these threads crap as the people who do add value get fed up and leave. Is it now a requirement to be "qualified" to hold a differing opinion to another poster on PH? I can't find reference to this in the PH rules, but I might have missed it. Or is it just something you've made up?
What makes PHs great is the wealth of backgrounds posters come from and the fact that they come in here sharing their real world knowledge and experience.
If they’re just bogged down and arguing with people blagging and googling and talking b
ks then they leave and the thread becomes another rubbish echo chamber, like the other climate threads. Condi said:
jet_noise said:
What are the thermal generation subsidies?
Capacity Mechanism for large plant. About £1bn this year from memory. Now suspended by the EU, although generally expected to be re-instated, as other EU countries have had their similar systems approved. STOR availability payments for smaller plant. Not so much now, as the STOR contract price for this season is 0, or close to 0, but in previous rounds there was quite a bit of value in the availability payments, regardless of whether the plant was used or not.
Edited by Condi on Tuesday 26th February 11:54
However if I understand their intent correctly I feel that calling those sums subsidies is a bit of a stretch of interpretation.
El stovey said:
V8 Fettler said:
I can.
Is it now a requirement to be "qualified" to hold a differing opinion to another poster on PH? I can't find reference to this in the PH rules, but I might have missed it. Or is it just something you've made up?
No but posters like you, make these threads crap as the people who do add value get fed up and leave. Is it now a requirement to be "qualified" to hold a differing opinion to another poster on PH? I can't find reference to this in the PH rules, but I might have missed it. Or is it just something you've made up?
What makes PHs great is the wealth of backgrounds posters come from and the fact that they come in here sharing their real world knowledge and experience.
If they’re just bogged down and arguing with people blagging and googling and talking b
ks then they leave and the thread becomes another rubbish echo chamber, like the other climate threads. jet_noise said:
Thanks, Condi.
However if I understand their intent correctly I feel that calling those sums subsidies is a bit of a stretch of interpretation.
How are you defining subsidies? However if I understand their intent correctly I feel that calling those sums subsidies is a bit of a stretch of interpretation.
They're subsidies in that its guaranteed money from the government intended to keep thermal plant open because the market doenst provide enough profit to make then economically viable without support.
Condi said:
How are you defining subsidies?
They're subsidies in that its guaranteed money from the government intended to keep thermal plant open because the market doenst provide enough profit to make then economically viable without support.
That's called insurance in the case of thermal, today's society can't run without it.They're subsidies in that its guaranteed money from the government intended to keep thermal plant open because the market doenst provide enough profit to make then economically viable without support.
Did this insurance (or subsidy if you wish
) exist before renewables became so favoured?Condi said:
What you're also ignoring is that while we pay subsidies for renewable generation (and we also pay subsidies for thermal generation - a point you often ignore), over time those subsidies decrease to almost nothing. Onshore wind is now viable without subsidy, offshore wind CFDs in the last round was set at £56/MW (only just above UK baseload), and the next CFD price might well be set below average UK baseload, if developers participate in the auction at all. Solar is now viable without subsidies as well. The first wind sites are reaching the end of their subsidy payments, and yet the sites continue to generate power, regardless of how cheap the market is.
Renewables get a subsidy in that they do not pay the grid cost for their own variability.Dieter Helms review last year recommended that renewables should be forced to bundle with flexible power generation so that carbon and Unreliability can be priced against each other.
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