The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
LoonyTunes said:
jet_noise said:
LoonyTunes said:
Jinx said:
LoonyTunes said:
You forgot future generations who will one day thank us for cutting back on our burning of fossil fuels. As a side note, nobody said it was going to be cheap.
Cough - last year the UK produced as much CO2 as in 1888.Of course when future generations are freezing under another ice age we may have prevented I suspect we won't be foremost in their thoughts.....
2. I'd like to see some evidence for the switch to renewables bringing about another ice age
Try answering my question
My question however is serious
jet_noise said:
LoonyTunes said:
jet_noise said:
LoonyTunes said:
Jinx said:
LoonyTunes said:
You forgot future generations who will one day thank us for cutting back on our burning of fossil fuels. As a side note, nobody said it was going to be cheap.
Cough - last year the UK produced as much CO2 as in 1888.Of course when future generations are freezing under another ice age we may have prevented I suspect we won't be foremost in their thoughts.....
2. I'd like to see some evidence for the switch to renewables bringing about another ice age
Try answering my question
My question however is serious
As for your question well it's the well trodden road of if we don't switch to something that doesn't spill out co2 as a by-product of generating energy then atmospheric co2 levels will rise...yada yada yada
LoonyTunes said:
Sorry, I got you and Jinx mixed what with both of your names starting with J and me expecting a response from him.
As for your question well it's the well trodden road of if we don't switch to something that doesn't spill out co2 as a by-product of generating energy then atmospheric co2 levels will rise...yada yada yada
As for your question well it's the well trodden road of if we don't switch to something that doesn't spill out co2 as a by-product of generating energy then atmospheric co2 levels will rise...yada yada yada
No worries, we all look the same us sceptics
Yada indeed.
The satnav that directed us down that road is recalculating the route due to ongoing economic conditions...
...and then I woke up.
LoonyTunes said:
Strawman.
You can only do what is within your power to do whilst trying to convince others to put their own house in order. Everyone else has to play their part too .
This is simple stuff PRTVR, why do you persist with such spurious points?
Personally, I'd rather 'us' (UK) be at the back of the queue when it comes to 'going green'. I know Britannia (allegedly) once ruled (guesstimate) 1/3 of the world - but right now UK CO2 emissions are tiny in comparison to other Nations. You can only do what is within your power to do whilst trying to convince others to put their own house in order. Everyone else has to play their part too .
This is simple stuff PRTVR, why do you persist with such spurious points?
So, carry on as we were rather than trying to set 'an example' to say India and China (although the wind farms that are springing up in China dwarf anything the 'West' are developing).
If China believe they are going to suffer difficulties in sourc(er)ing Australian coal then what option do they have?
Take a look.
I've yet to see a balanced energy budget for developing wind farms in the UK that doesn't cost more 'CO2' in manufacturing and deployment that will ever be 'reclaimed' from the atmosphere.
I've yet to see any evidence that anthropogenic CO2 is even a problem, it's plant food. Allegedly the planet is greening - Hurragh!
JustALooseScrew said:
Personally, I'd rather 'us' (UK) be at the back of the queue when it comes to 'going green'. I know Britannia (allegedly) once ruled (guesstimate) 1/3 of the world - but right now UK CO2 emissions are tiny in comparison to other Nations.
Or how about the fact we'd otherwise be dependent on foreign gas, oil, coal and uranium to meet any of our energy needs.Renewables so go some way to reducing that dependency.
JustALooseScrew said:
I've yet to see a balanced energy budget for developing wind farms in the UK that doesn't cost more 'CO2' in manufacturing and deployment that will ever be 'reclaimed' from the atmosphere.
You haven't looked thenhttps://fullfact.org/online/wind-turbines-energy/
Evanivitch said:
JustALooseScrew said:
Personally, I'd rather 'us' (UK) be at the back of the queue when it comes to 'going green'. I know Britannia (allegedly) once ruled (guesstimate) 1/3 of the world - but right now UK CO2 emissions are tiny in comparison to other Nations.
Or how about the fact we'd otherwise be dependent on foreign gas, oil, coal and uranium to meet any of our energy needs.Renewables so go some way to reducing that dependency.
JustALooseScrew said:
I've yet to see a balanced energy budget for developing wind farms in the UK that doesn't cost more 'CO2' in manufacturing and deployment that will ever be 'reclaimed' from the atmosphere.
You haven't looked thenhttps://fullfact.org/online/wind-turbines-energy/
and that's without fracking!!!!dickymint said:
Why would we be dependant on "foreign stuff" when we got plenty of our own and that's without fracking!!!!
Because fracking just isn't happening. I'm all for it, even with a large renewables grid, we're still going to need gas. But local and national politics don't seem to be driving the matter. and that's without fracking!!!!North Sea Oil and Gas isn't meeting our needs now, why do you think it will in the future?
Evanivitch said:
dickymint said:
Why would we be dependant on "foreign stuff" when we got plenty of our own and that's without fracking!!!!
Because fracking just isn't happening. I'm all for it, even with a large renewables grid, we're still going to need gas. But local and national politics don't seem to be driving the matter. and that's without fracking!!!!North Sea Oil and Gas isn't meeting our needs now, why do you think it will in the future?
Thought this might be of interest - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47485321 - pictures and video (which, from the timestamp appear to be a year old) of cracks in one of the reactors at Hunterston. EDF appear to want to increase the crack tolerance from 350 to 700. Current count is apparently 370 and the reactor hasn't been used for a year.
alangla said:
Thought this might be of interest - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47485321 - pictures and video (which, from the timestamp appear to be a year old) of cracks in one of the reactors at Hunterston. EDF appear to want to increase the crack tolerance from 350 to 700. Current count is apparently 370 and the reactor hasn't been used for a year.
Yep pretty widely known issue with graphite moderated reactors (of which basically only the U.K. use). The company I work for has been involved in some of the work around modelling of the graphite core. The crack tolerance of 350, like anything nuclear related is very conservative, so raising to 700 isn’t necessarily that scary. But as usual with nuclear, as soon as anything like this makes the news, scaremongering and hysteria kicks off. The comments online have been interesting to read. The latest article I saw on Facebook was discussing the possibility of the entirety of Glasgow and Edinburgh having to be evacuated if something went wrong. Great for getting website views and comments I guess..Guess which country hosts wind turbines that kill 1200 tonnes (1.2 million kg) of insects per year? After thousands of birds of prey getting slied and diced by blades, millions of bats having their lungs exploded by pressure changes, now we have 250 billion insects essential to ecosystems being annihilated annually in one country. The road to hell is paved with raptor carcasses, bat corpses and insect debris.
There's a clue in the headline.
Insekten halbieren teils Leistung von Windrädern und Windräder töten schätzungsweise 1.200 Tonnen Insekten pro Jahr
There's a clue in the headline.
Insekten halbieren teils Leistung von Windrädern und Windräder töten schätzungsweise 1.200 Tonnen Insekten pro Jahr
turbobloke said:
Guess which country hosts wind turbines that kill 1200 tonnes (1.2 million kg) of insects per year? After thousands of birds of prey getting slied and diced by blades, millions of bats having their lungs exploded by pressure changes, now we have 250 billion insects essential to ecosystems being annihilated annually in one country. The road to hell is paved with raptor carcasses, bat corpses and insect debris.
There's a clue in the headline.
Insekten halbieren teils Leistung von Windrädern und Windräder töten schätzungsweise 1.200 Tonnen Insekten pro Jahr
Coincidentally posted on a 'Science Sceptical Blog' which struggles to cite sources and also fails to quote the experts comments about intensive agriculture also having an effect on smaller insect populations. There's a clue in the headline.
Insekten halbieren teils Leistung von Windrädern und Windräder töten schätzungsweise 1.200 Tonnen Insekten pro Jahr
http://www.science-skeptical.de/klimawandel/insekt...
But as you're so worried, and considering we are in the middle of the largest extinction of life on earth in history (larger than that of the extinction of the dinosaurs), which is caused mainly (or largely) due to man made climate change, could you please quantify the effect of continued global warming on insect populations?
turbobloke said:
Guess which country hosts wind turbines that kill 1200 tonnes (1.2 million kg) of insects per year? After thousands of birds of prey getting slied and diced by blades, millions of bats having their lungs exploded by pressure changes, now we have 250 billion insects essential to ecosystems being annihilated annually in one country. The road to hell is paved with raptor carcasses, bat corpses and insect debris.
There's a clue in the headline.
Insekten halbieren teils Leistung von Windrädern und Windräder töten schätzungsweise 1.200 Tonnen Insekten pro Jahr
Compared to what?There's a clue in the headline.
Insekten halbieren teils Leistung von Windrädern und Windräder töten schätzungsweise 1.200 Tonnen Insekten pro Jahr
What's the impact of coal mining and power stations? What about gas? What about oil?
Is it better or worse than thermal?
I notice that it has been announced that new build houses from 2025 will not be allowed to have fossil fueled heating.
No apologies whatsoever for posting a Daily Mail link;
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6804685/F...
I wonder if future legislation will tighten up and not allow the replacement of existing gas boilers when they reach the end of their working lives? I'm sure that is planned.
Heat pumps are the obvious solution but as I understand it, they are hoofing great big things that could be difficult to accommodate and retrofit in many flats and houses.
Regardless, those power stations are not going to build themselves.
No apologies whatsoever for posting a Daily Mail link;
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6804685/F...
I wonder if future legislation will tighten up and not allow the replacement of existing gas boilers when they reach the end of their working lives? I'm sure that is planned.
Heat pumps are the obvious solution but as I understand it, they are hoofing great big things that could be difficult to accommodate and retrofit in many flats and houses.
Regardless, those power stations are not going to build themselves.
colin_p said:
I wonder if future legislation will tighten up and not allow the replacement of existing gas boilers when they reach the end of their working lives? I'm sure that is planned.
I'm sure it's not. Moving to Heat Pumps is a complete change of the central heating system, including radiators as the water temperatures are lower.colin_p said:
Heat pumps are the obvious solution but as I understand it, they are hoofing great big things that could be difficult to accommodate and retrofit in many flats and houses.
They're the same size as the air-conditioning units you see on the side of offices and flats in almost every major city throughout the world.The issue with heat pumps is that they work better at a lower output temperature than your normal gas boiler. So larger or fan assisted radiators, or underfloor heating are required.
But let's not pretend that electricity-only homes is a new thing. Electric storage heaters and immersion economy 7 tanks have existed for years.
Condi said:
New estates and towns will be heated far more by community heating. Industry wastes so much energy as heat and in this country we are not very good at using it. On the continent community heating is far more common.
Agreed, but...The cost of retrofitting community heating is huge (£1000 per metre I've recently read) and it means having a thermal power facility on your doorstep.
In Swansea there is a planning application for a new incinerator which has the potential for district heating. But people are so anti-thermal in the area, despite it being next to an existing enterprise zone, that it's likely to be rejected.
Oh, for retrofitting it wont be common any time soon, but in new builds will be much more frequent.
The new Battersea Power Station development in London has gas engines in the basement which provide power into the building/grid, but also use the waste heat to heat the offices and flats. The new reciprocating engines are 42% or so efficient, so even if you only use half the heat you're still operating at about 70% overall efficiency compared with a CCGT at 60% ish. Its a very cost effective solution to best use the energy in the gas.
The new Battersea Power Station development in London has gas engines in the basement which provide power into the building/grid, but also use the waste heat to heat the offices and flats. The new reciprocating engines are 42% or so efficient, so even if you only use half the heat you're still operating at about 70% overall efficiency compared with a CCGT at 60% ish. Its a very cost effective solution to best use the energy in the gas.
Condi said:
Oh, for retrofitting it wont be common any time soon, but in new builds will be much more frequent.
The new Battersea Power Station development in London has gas engines in the basement which provide power into the building/grid, but also use the waste heat to heat the offices and flats. The new reciprocating engines are 42% or so efficient, so even if you only use half the heat you're still operating at about 70% overall efficiency compared with a CCGT at 60% ish. Its a very cost effective solution to best use the energy in the gas.
That's only CHP though, and not uncommon. Even a large supermarket I worked in 15 years ago had CHP (as well as solar).The new Battersea Power Station development in London has gas engines in the basement which provide power into the building/grid, but also use the waste heat to heat the offices and flats. The new reciprocating engines are 42% or so efficient, so even if you only use half the heat you're still operating at about 70% overall efficiency compared with a CCGT at 60% ish. Its a very cost effective solution to best use the energy in the gas.
District heating in the UK isn't something I'm aware of. And the idea that people would be willing to buy their new home next to a thermal power station seems unlikely to me.
However, Caerau has plans for a district heating system using old flooded coal mines as a heat source (supposedly maintaining a constant 20C water temperature) and somewhere like Port Talbot which has a population in close proximity to heavy industry (and several power stations) would be ideal of the retrofit costs cost be addressed.
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