The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
What are the differences of CHP and a thermal power station? I've only ever heard of CHP systems being used rather than simply heating the water without recovering any electrical power.
Some universities have CHP systems which heat the campus buildings, and in future rather than dedicated thermal power stations the idea will be to use hot water from industry. Current CCGT stations, industry etc dump a s
t load of heat into the atmosphere or into a water source - that waste heat will be far cheaper than a dedicated thermal station, even if it has to be piped 20 miles to the nearest population centre.
Some universities have CHP systems which heat the campus buildings, and in future rather than dedicated thermal power stations the idea will be to use hot water from industry. Current CCGT stations, industry etc dump a s
t load of heat into the atmosphere or into a water source - that waste heat will be far cheaper than a dedicated thermal station, even if it has to be piped 20 miles to the nearest population centre. Condi said:
What are the differences of CHP and a thermal power station?
that waste heat will be far cheaper than a dedicated thermal station, even if it has to be piped 20 miles to the nearest population centre.
Firstly, usually scale. CHP are usually small with little intention of returning energy to the grid.that waste heat will be far cheaper than a dedicated thermal station, even if it has to be piped 20 miles to the nearest population centre.
And secondly, no. Distance to the heat consumer is a huge issue and incredibly expensive to send heat long distances.
Evanivitch said:
Condi said:
What are the differences of CHP and a thermal power station?
that waste heat will be far cheaper than a dedicated thermal station, even if it has to be piped 20 miles to the nearest population centre.
Firstly, usually scale. CHP are usually small with little intention of returning energy to the grid.that waste heat will be far cheaper than a dedicated thermal station, even if it has to be piped 20 miles to the nearest population centre.
And secondly, no. Distance to the heat consumer is a huge issue and incredibly expensive to send heat long distances.
The main feed main is relatively cheap compared to the pipes required to connect each and every house.
Talksteer said:
Distances of multiple 10's of km have been achieved in various european countries with relatively low losses in temperature. In Switzerland they have district heat from a nuclear reactor.
The main feed main is relatively cheap compared to the pipes required to connect each and every house.
Examples? I'm struggling to find many. Beznau seems to export upto 14km away as the furthest district receiving heat.The main feed main is relatively cheap compared to the pipes required to connect each and every house.
The Swiss appear to build a lot closer to their nuclear power stations.
Jambo85 said:
An ex of mine lived in Nyon, Switzerland and was connected to district heating, not sure where from. I think they also have waste incinerators providing heat?
Waste incinerators seem a popular choice. However, given the increase in recycling rates that are concerns about the quantity of feed stock available. Perhaps biomass can supplement.We all know damned well that here in the UK several things might will happen;
1, Domestic gas boilers banned, what now, no plans other than going over to much more expensive electric.
2, The power stations that have been shut down are not being replaced, population and demand continues to grow; electric cars + electric heating = the perfect cold and dark storm.
3, District heating, medium pressure steam ring mains or whatever is needed will be prohibitively expensive to install and probably will not happen at all. If they do, the cost of connecting to one and the bills would likely be eye watering.
4, Owners will start to retrofit gas systems and log burners to their new builds, buy many more warn cardigans, may have hoofing great big diesel generators plonked in their back gardens and will likely be cycling to work cos their Teslas are flat.
I mention medium pressure steam (super heated water) as many years ago I was on a job (construction) at the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst and the heating system there was medium pressure steam with a single boiler house that fed almost all of the buildings there. I remember it was a right faff getting a specialist company in, with coded welders, to do the pipework connecting the building we were building to the system. The testing on the pipework included having all welds x-rayed. It was difficult then, now there are probably very few people who could do it. I vaguely recall the chap who did it normally worked offshore in the oil industry.
1, Domestic gas boilers banned, what now, no plans other than going over to much more expensive electric.
2, The power stations that have been shut down are not being replaced, population and demand continues to grow; electric cars + electric heating = the perfect cold and dark storm.
3, District heating, medium pressure steam ring mains or whatever is needed will be prohibitively expensive to install and probably will not happen at all. If they do, the cost of connecting to one and the bills would likely be eye watering.
4, Owners will start to retrofit gas systems and log burners to their new builds, buy many more warn cardigans, may have hoofing great big diesel generators plonked in their back gardens and will likely be cycling to work cos their Teslas are flat.
I mention medium pressure steam (super heated water) as many years ago I was on a job (construction) at the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst and the heating system there was medium pressure steam with a single boiler house that fed almost all of the buildings there. I remember it was a right faff getting a specialist company in, with coded welders, to do the pipework connecting the building we were building to the system. The testing on the pipework included having all welds x-rayed. It was difficult then, now there are probably very few people who could do it. I vaguely recall the chap who did it normally worked offshore in the oil industry.
colin_p said:
We all know damned well that here in the UK several things might will happen;
1, Domestic gas boilers banned, what now, no plans other than going over to much more expensive electric.
2, The power stations that have been shut down are not being replaced, population and demand continues to grow; electric cars + electric heating = the perfect cold and dark storm.
3, District heating, medium pressure steam ring mains or whatever is needed will be prohibitively expensive to install and probably will not happen at all. If they do, the cost of connecting to one and the bills would likely be eye watering.
4, Owners will start to retrofit gas systems and log burners to their new builds, buy many more warn cardigans, may have hoofing great big diesel generators plonked in their back gardens and will likely be cycling to work cos their Teslas are flat.
I mention medium pressure steam (super heated water) as many years ago I was on a job (construction) at the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst and the heating system there was medium pressure steam with a single boiler house that fed almost all of the buildings there. I remember it was a right faff getting a specialist company in, with coded welders, to do the pipework connecting the building we were building to the system. The testing on the pipework included having all welds x-rayed. It was difficult then, now there are probably very few people who could do it. I vaguely recall the chap who did it normally worked offshore in the oil industry.
Or it'll encourage developers to build more energy efficient homes, designed from the ground up to utilise heat pump systems. These tend to be far cheaper to run than "old fashioned" electric heating systems (like the Economy 7 system I have at home - no mains gas in our road!)1, Domestic gas boilers banned, what now, no plans other than going over to much more expensive electric.
2, The power stations that have been shut down are not being replaced, population and demand continues to grow; electric cars + electric heating = the perfect cold and dark storm.
3, District heating, medium pressure steam ring mains or whatever is needed will be prohibitively expensive to install and probably will not happen at all. If they do, the cost of connecting to one and the bills would likely be eye watering.
4, Owners will start to retrofit gas systems and log burners to their new builds, buy many more warn cardigans, may have hoofing great big diesel generators plonked in their back gardens and will likely be cycling to work cos their Teslas are flat.
I mention medium pressure steam (super heated water) as many years ago I was on a job (construction) at the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst and the heating system there was medium pressure steam with a single boiler house that fed almost all of the buildings there. I remember it was a right faff getting a specialist company in, with coded welders, to do the pipework connecting the building we were building to the system. The testing on the pipework included having all welds x-rayed. It was difficult then, now there are probably very few people who could do it. I vaguely recall the chap who did it normally worked offshore in the oil industry.
colin_p said:
I remember it was a right faff getting a specialist company in, with coded welders, to do the pipework connecting the building we were building to the system. The testing on the pipework included having all welds x-rayed. It was difficult then, now there are probably very few people who could do it. I vaguely recall the chap who did it normally worked offshore in the oil industry.
That's just because the systems are so limited in the UK. New York city has a vast network of steam heating throughout the city. I doubt they suffer the same issues.rscott said:
Or it'll encourage developers to build more energy efficient homes, designed from the ground up to utilise heat pump systems. These tend to be far cheaper to run than "old fashioned" electric heating systems (like the Economy 7 system I have at home - no mains gas in our road!)
Exactly, however there are 2 issues. Firstly the quality of new builds is poor, and many buildings are failing to maintain the same performance as when they were tested at construction after even a few years. This was mentioned as a major issue by the government only a month ago when the move to heat pumps was discussed.And secondly the user needs to better understand how these systems should be used economically. Expecting a heat pump system to rapidly recover from a low internal temperature is like to fall far short of expectations of someone that is used to gas central heating.
turbobloke said:
Web comment on the Venezuela grid situation for 'qualified' and 'unqualified' people to consider in whatever way is chosen.
http://joannenova.com.au/
Replaced with the actual source - far easier to read and gives the context. I ought to start charging TB for this service..http://joannenova.com.au/
rscott said:
Replaced with the actual source - far easier to read and gives the context. I ought to start charging TB for this service..
Your post adds nothing to the debate beyond another failed point scoring attempt. You ought to try harder!With the irrelevant trivia ^^ in the long grass is there any qualified or unqualified comment on the views expressed ref Venezuela grid woes?
Venezuela blackouts from ground level.
'This Is Going To End Ugly': Venezuela's Power Outage Drags On
https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702179263/this-is-g...
The Guardian repeats claims of sabotage but cites more credible causes.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/13/vene...
Grid destabilisation at the limit: "greens ought to give the situation in Venezuela serious thought"
'This Is Going To End Ugly': Venezuela's Power Outage Drags On
https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702179263/this-is-g...
The Guardian repeats claims of sabotage but cites more credible causes.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/13/vene...
Grid destabilisation at the limit: "greens ought to give the situation in Venezuela serious thought"
turbobloke said:
rscott said:
Replaced with the actual source - far easier to read and gives the context. I ought to start charging TB for this service..
Your post adds nothing to the debate beyond another failed point scoring attempt. You ought to try harder!With the irrelevant trivia ^^ in the long grass is there any qualified or unqualified comment on the views expressed ref Venezuela grid woes?
Its important because shes the author of 'The Skepetics Handbook', is no much more knowledgeable about the Venezuelan power grid than anyone else, and is firmly against renewable power. She is hardly an unbiased expert simply providing her professional opinion.
For what its worth National Grid DO test the blackstart capabilities of the network every now and again. They isolate HV lines between units and test their ability to produce a stable frequency without a live network to synchronise to.
But thankfully, until Corbyn nationalises the power network, comparisons between the GB and Venezuelan grid are pretty pointless.
EDIT - Of interest we've had 10GW of baseload wind power this week. Funky.
For what its worth National Grid DO test the blackstart capabilities of the network every now and again. They isolate HV lines between units and test their ability to produce a stable frequency without a live network to synchronise to.
But thankfully, until Corbyn nationalises the power network, comparisons between the GB and Venezuelan grid are pretty pointless.
EDIT - Of interest we've had 10GW of baseload wind power this week. Funky.
Edited by Condi on Thursday 14th March 18:56
Condi said:
Its important because shes the author of 'The Skepetics Handbook',
Was that about the non-point from rscott?How educated are you? Have you been published either in the academic or popular literature? If you wrote an article which was refereed and accepted for the former which was then reproduced in the latter, how would the two differ (answer - not at all).
The secondary source is irrelevant. You say 'she is no more knowledgeable' and so on but it's not her comment so her knowledge isn't pertinent to what I posted,
An informed / qualified / uninformed / unqualified person is free to post the same material on PH, CIF, Climate Etc or indeed in reply to a BBC article online, if replies are allowed. That;'s exactly the same material in different places and you seriously think it matters where it's posted? The primary source is all that's relevant and even there it's the content that needs to be addressed and evaluated not whether the author prefers tomayto to tomahto.
turbobloke said:
Was that about the non-point from rscott?
How educated are you? Have you been published either in the academic or popular literature? If you wrote an article which was refereed and accepted for the former which was then reproduced in the latter, how would the two differ (answer - not at all).
The secondary source is irrelevant. You say 'she is no more knowledgeable' and so on but it's not her comment so her knowledge isn't pertinent to what I posted,
An informed / qualified / uninformed / unqualified person is free to post the same material on PH, CIF, Climate Etc or indeed in reply to a BBC article online, if replies are allowed. That;'s exactly the same material in different places and you seriously think it matters where it's posted? The primary source is all that's relevant and even there it's the content that needs to be addressed and evaluated not whether the author prefers tomayto to tomahto.
So who's comment was it? And what are his credentials about power networks, and what paper has he published? How educated are you? Have you been published either in the academic or popular literature? If you wrote an article which was refereed and accepted for the former which was then reproduced in the latter, how would the two differ (answer - not at all).
The secondary source is irrelevant. You say 'she is no more knowledgeable' and so on but it's not her comment so her knowledge isn't pertinent to what I posted,
An informed / qualified / uninformed / unqualified person is free to post the same material on PH, CIF, Climate Etc or indeed in reply to a BBC article online, if replies are allowed. That;'s exactly the same material in different places and you seriously think it matters where it's posted? The primary source is all that's relevant and even there it's the content that needs to be addressed and evaluated not whether the author prefers tomayto to tomahto.
Yes, anyone can comment, but the opinion of someone uneducated or unknowledgeable about a subject carries less weight than that of someone who can demonstrate proven credentials about the same subject. Half the problem with the internet is that everyone believes their opinion is important, and as such conspiracy theories and misinformation spread at the expense of science and facts. It doesnt make the incorrect opinion fact.
While the 'expert' proclaiming doom and gloom said it could take up to 2 years for power to be restored, power has already been restored to much of the network including the capital, and life is starting to return to what counts as normal in the country. So only 1 year 11 months and 15 days earlier than he predicted then!
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