The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
turbobloke said:
Having posted news of a report about the magical dreamworld nature of a rapid global green energy transition and stalled renewables development, with wider findings in agreement with the RE<C results (renewables are not the solution) it turns out there was a GWPF report - at least one threader will love it 
- on storage inadequacy last month. This may be a pearoast but it'll offer a useful reminder for blinkered renewables enthusiasts.
PDF here
Whoever Prof Ponton is, he is wrong. - on storage inadequacy last month. This may be a pearoast but it'll offer a useful reminder for blinkered renewables enthusiasts.Prof Ponton said:
Wind and solar power are not available on demand and there are no technologies to make them so. Refusing to face these inconvenient facts poses a serious threat to our energy security.
Fantasy robotic windfarms with self-erecting turbines can't cut it, so the non-existent technology for which the faithful have their fingers crossed will need to go beyond that. Suggestions on a postcard, or even on this thread.PDF here
During windy nights, or sunny days, the UK already uses that cheap (even free, or sometimes, even cheaper than free) energy to pump water up hill, which can then be used to generate power at times of greater need.
There are 3 or 4 plans in place for additional capacity, either by increasing the size of existing plants, or building new systems.
For every problem, there is a solution. You're not the first person to have thought of this!
Condi said:
Whoever Prof Ponton is, he is wrong.
During windy nights, or sunny days, the UK already uses that cheap (even free, or sometimes, even cheaper than free) energy to pump water up hill, which can then be used to generate power at times of greater need.
There are 3 or 4 plans in place for additional capacity, either by increasing the size of existing plants, or building new systems.
For every problem, there is a solution. You're not the first person to have thought of this!
Very true but at what cost ?During windy nights, or sunny days, the UK already uses that cheap (even free, or sometimes, even cheaper than free) energy to pump water up hill, which can then be used to generate power at times of greater need.
There are 3 or 4 plans in place for additional capacity, either by increasing the size of existing plants, or building new systems.
For every problem, there is a solution. You're not the first person to have thought of this!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Sta...
Look at the cost and it's capability, it's not going to keep the grid going for days.
PRTVR said:
Very true but at what cost ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Sta...
Look at the cost and it's capability, it's not going to keep the grid going for days.
Its not. Although it will do 370MW an hour for 24 hours from full, which is about the same as small to medium sized CCGT at full load. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Sta...
Look at the cost and it's capability, it's not going to keep the grid going for days.
I dont think anyone on this thread has said that renewable power will ever do 24/7 baseload - there will always be a place for thermal power due to the inherent unreliability of wind and solar. That said, renewables can/are/will generate valuable cheap, carbon free MW, which can offset some of the thermal power.
What we will continue to see is larger price differentials between times of high renewable output and low renewable output. To manage that requires more storage (which is being planned), but the economic opportunities will also encourage customers, through variable pricing tariffs, to change their energy use too. Internet connected appliances will allow intelligent use of power, vehicle to grid will do the same. Its all happening now, and IMO the energy sector is one of the most exciting sectors to be involved in right now. The investment going into new technology is phenomenal and in probably quite a short period of time, we'll look back and ask if we really did used to light up a 2000MW coal fired station for the peak 4 hours of the day.
Balanced mixes of energy.....
today I read :
"Since February, the UK’s gas interconnector imports are being displaced in the gas supply mix by a surge in LNG imports.
Month-on-month the gas supply mix has changed, with interconnector imports and LNG send-out going from 4.6% and 17.0% of total gas supply in February, to 0.1% and 20.6% respectively in March
"
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BEIS annual energy figures have been released, confirming another record breaking year for wind energy in 2018. Wind generated over 17% of the UK's electricity across the year - up from 14.8% in 2017
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"
38% of Great Britain’s electricity was powered by wind between 11/03 and 17/03 - more than any other power source.
"
And it is soon "Solar Season" too....
Times are sure changing. I doubt if opinions on PH do though.
today I read :
"Since February, the UK’s gas interconnector imports are being displaced in the gas supply mix by a surge in LNG imports.
Month-on-month the gas supply mix has changed, with interconnector imports and LNG send-out going from 4.6% and 17.0% of total gas supply in February, to 0.1% and 20.6% respectively in March
"
"
BEIS annual energy figures have been released, confirming another record breaking year for wind energy in 2018. Wind generated over 17% of the UK's electricity across the year - up from 14.8% in 2017
"
"
38% of Great Britain’s electricity was powered by wind between 11/03 and 17/03 - more than any other power source.
"
And it is soon "Solar Season" too....
Times are sure changing. I doubt if opinions on PH do though.
Add Amazon to the list of 'wanting 100% Renewable' power sources :
Amazon Web Services vice president of global infrastructure and customer support Peter DeSantis said: “Each of these projects brings us closer to our long-term commitment to use 100% renewable energy to power our global AWS infrastructure
https://renews.biz/52530/amazon-scores-delivery-ha...
Amazon Web Services vice president of global infrastructure and customer support Peter DeSantis said: “Each of these projects brings us closer to our long-term commitment to use 100% renewable energy to power our global AWS infrastructure
https://renews.biz/52530/amazon-scores-delivery-ha...
As pointed out many times, 100% renewable doesn't mean 100% renewable all day, every day.
It means that they have bought the equivalent amount of renewable certificates or have a PPA for the volume from a renewable provider.
What comes out the wire could have come from any source, until the electrons start identifying themselves by generation!
It means that they have bought the equivalent amount of renewable certificates or have a PPA for the volume from a renewable provider.
What comes out the wire could have come from any source, until the electrons start identifying themselves by generation!
Condi said:
As pointed out many times, 100% renewable doesn't mean 100% renewable all day, every day.
It means that they have bought the equivalent amount of renewable certificates or have a PPA for the volume from a renewable provider.
What comes out the wire could have come from any source, until the electrons start identifying themselves by generation!
Yes I'm aware of that as it was me who made that point last.It means that they have bought the equivalent amount of renewable certificates or have a PPA for the volume from a renewable provider.
What comes out the wire could have come from any source, until the electrons start identifying themselves by generation!
However a data centre is vastly different to a home energy provider, a single facility using megawatts of power on an inflexible schedule. It's never going to be good for the environment, regardless of how many certificates they purchase.
It wouldn't suprise me if a company like amazon did come up with some energy storage advances, they certainly drive tech in other areas like space flight and data centres are one of the biggest energy users we have. Getting bigger all the time too.
Edited by wombleh on Tuesday 9th April 17:43
WhatHappenedThere said:
turbobloke said:
The UK won't stop (yet).
Green Energy, Magical Thinking
Link
PDF
Hydrocarbons - oil, natural gas, and coal - are the world’s principal energy resource today and will continue to be so in the foreseeable future. Wind turbines, solar arrays, and batteries, meanwhile, constitute a small source of energy, and physics dictates that they will remain so. This paper highlights the physics of energy to illustrate why there is no possibility that the world is undergoing or can undergo a near-term transition to a “new energy economy".
Mark P. Mills, Manhattan Institute, 26 March 2019
No mention of Nuclear Power in the mix? why ? Green Energy, Magical Thinking
Link
Hydrocarbons - oil, natural gas, and coal - are the world’s principal energy resource today and will continue to be so in the foreseeable future. Wind turbines, solar arrays, and batteries, meanwhile, constitute a small source of energy, and physics dictates that they will remain so. This paper highlights the physics of energy to illustrate why there is no possibility that the world is undergoing or can undergo a near-term transition to a “new energy economy".
Mark P. Mills, Manhattan Institute, 26 March 2019
Because the Manhattan Institute is funded by a shadowy cabal of fossil fuel dinosaurs.
[/tinfoil hat]
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00013rf
File on 4 - "Power Games" about companies gaming subsidies
Then on the other side of the coin...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000qr9
"Fuelling the future" - how removing subsidies causes job losses and goverment energy policy leads to wasted investment.
(I think I'm travelling for work too much, trawling the BBC radio archives for documentaries!!)
File on 4 - "Power Games" about companies gaming subsidies
Then on the other side of the coin...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000qr9
"Fuelling the future" - how removing subsidies causes job losses and goverment energy policy leads to wasted investment.
(I think I'm travelling for work too much, trawling the BBC radio archives for documentaries!!)
Glade said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00013rf
File on 4 - "Power Games" about companies gaming subsidies
Then on the other side of the coin...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000qr9
"Fuelling the future" - how removing subsidies causes job losses and goverment energy policy leads to wasted investment.
(I think I'm travelling for work too much, trawling the BBC radio archives for documentaries!!)
The closure of of that plant is a good thing, subsidy for biofuel from stuff expressly grown for the purpose is mostly a boondoggle, it very rarely makes any sense either environmentally or economically. Corn ethanol subsidy in the US was a bribe by the Bush government to the cornbelt, there's no environmental justification for it at all.File on 4 - "Power Games" about companies gaming subsidies
Then on the other side of the coin...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000qr9
"Fuelling the future" - how removing subsidies causes job losses and goverment energy policy leads to wasted investment.
(I think I'm travelling for work too much, trawling the BBC radio archives for documentaries!!)
Government figures released this week show that wind generated a record amount of electricity in 2018.
The provisional statistics, published by BEIS’ Energy Trends report, show that wind provided 17.1% of the UK’s electricity last year (9.1% from onshore wind and 8% from offshore wind, both new annual records). Overall, renewables generated a record 33.3%. Low carbon generation (renewables and nuclear) reached a new high of 52.8%. Nuclear provided 19.5%, with gas generating 39.4%, and coal generation dropped to a record annual low of 5%.
BEIS also released statistics today covering the final three months of 2018, showing that renewables generated a quarterly record of 37.1% of the UK’s electricity from October to December, which was driven by a new high in generation from wind.
These record-breaking figures demonstrate the unstoppable momentum for renewables, with spectacular global cost reductions in onshore and offshore wind. Wind power in the UK is driving a transformation in energy, to clean, affordable and flexible power that works hand in hand with exciting technologies of the future like storage and electric vehicles.
The provisional statistics, published by BEIS’ Energy Trends report, show that wind provided 17.1% of the UK’s electricity last year (9.1% from onshore wind and 8% from offshore wind, both new annual records). Overall, renewables generated a record 33.3%. Low carbon generation (renewables and nuclear) reached a new high of 52.8%. Nuclear provided 19.5%, with gas generating 39.4%, and coal generation dropped to a record annual low of 5%.
BEIS also released statistics today covering the final three months of 2018, showing that renewables generated a quarterly record of 37.1% of the UK’s electricity from October to December, which was driven by a new high in generation from wind.
These record-breaking figures demonstrate the unstoppable momentum for renewables, with spectacular global cost reductions in onshore and offshore wind. Wind power in the UK is driving a transformation in energy, to clean, affordable and flexible power that works hand in hand with exciting technologies of the future like storage and electric vehicles.
I have not read much of this thread, but the way I see it is that the key is in energy HARVESTING & micro generation.
In the same way we harvest foodstuffs & then consume when ready (grain for example) we should be harvesting renewable energy & using it when required as renewable obviously cannot be turned on & off as readily as more conventional power stations.
On a domestic level solar roofs & power walls would IMO be appropriate.
In the same way we harvest foodstuffs & then consume when ready (grain for example) we should be harvesting renewable energy & using it when required as renewable obviously cannot be turned on & off as readily as more conventional power stations.
On a domestic level solar roofs & power walls would IMO be appropriate.
Edited by IN51GHT on Thursday 11th April 12:09
WhatHappenedThere said:
dickymint said:
I dare say Paddy would agree with you.
I don’t understand. What do you mean ?Pathetic individual.
Good to know.
Back almost on subject then ?
Not UK Generation but in the spirit of the EU not letting us go just yet, the Germans have also been making shouts about their energy mix, and how renewables are working for their society too :
Strong winds and plenty of sunshine boosted renewable energy output in Germany to 49.4 terrawatt-hours in the first three months of 2019, up nearly 25% on the 39.6TWh generated in the same period of 2018.
The data came from the Centre for Solar Energy and Hydrogen Research Baden-Wurttemberg (ZSW) and the Federal Association of the Energy and Water Industry (BDEW).
Onshore wind contributed the largest share with 36.2TWh, up from 28.9TWh between January and the end of March last year.
Offshore wind increased to 6.8TWh this year from 5.1TWh in 2017, while solar power output was 6.4TWh this year, compared with 5.59TWh, ZSW and BDEW said.
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