The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
I was reminded that my local supermarket, about a year ago, 'upgraded' all of their fridge and chiller units by fitting doors - some sliders, some regular opening doors. The idea was clearly to cut costs but was presented as a planet saving development.
Great idea in that since the open fronted units were so cold that half of the store was always very chilly and staff working in the area were often shivering.
After a few weeks the new doors started to fail but they seems to fix those.
However the doors are often covered with condensation, the units often leak and have to be taken out of use and the public, or at least some of them, find it difficult to work with doors - especially closing them.
They reduced the number of shelves in use and put advertising in place of goods in some shelves. That seems to have led to even more condensation and leaks to the floor around the units and units out of action awaiting an engineer.
A few weeks ago a hole bank of chillers had a failure for some reason and the contents had to be thrown away. There was, in the day, not stock to replace the contents even when they got the units working again. I think to mess with such units for reasons unconnected with food preservation may be a tad unwise.
The Guardian story has all the hallmarks of one tentacle of a corporate management system doing its own thing without any regard for the purposes of the other tentacle that is trying to run its operations in the best way it knows for the goods and services it offers.
If it all goes ahead it will be interesting to see the results.
Great idea in that since the open fronted units were so cold that half of the store was always very chilly and staff working in the area were often shivering.
After a few weeks the new doors started to fail but they seems to fix those.
However the doors are often covered with condensation, the units often leak and have to be taken out of use and the public, or at least some of them, find it difficult to work with doors - especially closing them.
They reduced the number of shelves in use and put advertising in place of goods in some shelves. That seems to have led to even more condensation and leaks to the floor around the units and units out of action awaiting an engineer.
A few weeks ago a hole bank of chillers had a failure for some reason and the contents had to be thrown away. There was, in the day, not stock to replace the contents even when they got the units working again. I think to mess with such units for reasons unconnected with food preservation may be a tad unwise.
The Guardian story has all the hallmarks of one tentacle of a corporate management system doing its own thing without any regard for the purposes of the other tentacle that is trying to run its operations in the best way it knows for the goods and services it offers.
If it all goes ahead it will be interesting to see the results.
Condi said:
The3rdDukeofB said:
Condi -
What is to stop an operator / developer that thinks he may not get their project awarded a CFD this year throwing their toys out of the pram and developing their project independent of the CFD process (and regulation).
Would it still fall within the 6GW cap ? How would the Ofto and alike align in your thoughts ?
No idea - not my area of expertise. AFAIK there is nothing to stop you building things without a CFD as long as you fulfil all other requirements. CFD only guarantees a price, if that price can be guaranteed a different way and it is economic then you can carry on. What regulation is attached to the CFD which is otherwise not applicable to non CFD plant? What is to stop an operator / developer that thinks he may not get their project awarded a CFD this year throwing their toys out of the pram and developing their project independent of the CFD process (and regulation).
Would it still fall within the 6GW cap ? How would the Ofto and alike align in your thoughts ?
I think Crack on andI am told that one or two who may not win in this years CFD don't fancy their chances resubmitting next year up against Hornsea 3, so will go it alone.
They will in effect be building Offshore Wind farms subsidy free.
Interesting times if they do, but unsurprising when the slide in costs over the decade is viewed.
LongQ said:
I was reminded that my local supermarket, about a year ago, 'upgraded' all of their fridge and chiller units by fitting doors - some sliders, some regular opening doors. The idea was clearly to cut costs but was presented as a planet saving development.
Great idea in that since the open fronted units were so cold that half of the store was always very chilly and staff working in the area were often shivering.
After a few weeks the new doors started to fail but they seems to fix those.
However the doors are often covered with condensation, the units often leak and have to be taken out of use and the public, or at least some of them, find it difficult to work with doors - especially closing them.
They reduced the number of shelves in use and put advertising in place of goods in some shelves. That seems to have led to even more condensation and leaks to the floor around the units and units out of action awaiting an engineer.
A few weeks ago a hole bank of chillers had a failure for some reason and the contents had to be thrown away. There was, in the day, not stock to replace the contents even when they got the units working again. I think to mess with such units for reasons unconnected with food preservation may be a tad unwise.
The Guardian story has all the hallmarks of one tentacle of a corporate management system doing its own thing without any regard for the purposes of the other tentacle that is trying to run its operations in the best way it knows for the goods and services it offers.
If it all goes ahead it will be interesting to see the results.
Most Lidl and Aldi seem to have doors on their freezers (and even on the milk section) without too many issues.Great idea in that since the open fronted units were so cold that half of the store was always very chilly and staff working in the area were often shivering.
After a few weeks the new doors started to fail but they seems to fix those.
However the doors are often covered with condensation, the units often leak and have to be taken out of use and the public, or at least some of them, find it difficult to work with doors - especially closing them.
They reduced the number of shelves in use and put advertising in place of goods in some shelves. That seems to have led to even more condensation and leaks to the floor around the units and units out of action awaiting an engineer.
A few weeks ago a hole bank of chillers had a failure for some reason and the contents had to be thrown away. There was, in the day, not stock to replace the contents even when they got the units working again. I think to mess with such units for reasons unconnected with food preservation may be a tad unwise.
The Guardian story has all the hallmarks of one tentacle of a corporate management system doing its own thing without any regard for the purposes of the other tentacle that is trying to run its operations in the best way it knows for the goods and services it offers.
If it all goes ahead it will be interesting to see the results.
Evanivitch said:
But 10 minutes isn't exactly rapid response when you compare what the Australian gigabattery has been capable of.
Which is why NG have already procured a large amount of battery frequency response (more than Australia), with multiple installed systems from multiple vendors (including Tesla).National grid have procured 200 MW of battery storage services from various service providers, and these were commissioned last year. The tender cleared at £7/MW/hour- so they pay about £12m per year for the service. This is part of a larger frequency response market which costs around £170m per year.
rscott said:
LongQ said:
I was reminded that my local supermarket, about a year ago, 'upgraded' all of their fridge and chiller units by fitting doors - some sliders, some regular opening doors. The idea was clearly to cut costs but was presented as a planet saving development.
Great idea in that since the open fronted units were so cold that half of the store was always very chilly and staff working in the area were often shivering.
After a few weeks the new doors started to fail but they seems to fix those.
However the doors are often covered with condensation, the units often leak and have to be taken out of use and the public, or at least some of them, find it difficult to work with doors - especially closing them.
They reduced the number of shelves in use and put advertising in place of goods in some shelves. That seems to have led to even more condensation and leaks to the floor around the units and units out of action awaiting an engineer.
A few weeks ago a hole bank of chillers had a failure for some reason and the contents had to be thrown away. There was, in the day, not stock to replace the contents even when they got the units working again. I think to mess with such units for reasons unconnected with food preservation may be a tad unwise.
The Guardian story has all the hallmarks of one tentacle of a corporate management system doing its own thing without any regard for the purposes of the other tentacle that is trying to run its operations in the best way it knows for the goods and services it offers.
If it all goes ahead it will be interesting to see the results.
Most Lidl and Aldi seem to have doors on their freezers (and even on the milk section) without too many issues.Great idea in that since the open fronted units were so cold that half of the store was always very chilly and staff working in the area were often shivering.
After a few weeks the new doors started to fail but they seems to fix those.
However the doors are often covered with condensation, the units often leak and have to be taken out of use and the public, or at least some of them, find it difficult to work with doors - especially closing them.
They reduced the number of shelves in use and put advertising in place of goods in some shelves. That seems to have led to even more condensation and leaks to the floor around the units and units out of action awaiting an engineer.
A few weeks ago a hole bank of chillers had a failure for some reason and the contents had to be thrown away. There was, in the day, not stock to replace the contents even when they got the units working again. I think to mess with such units for reasons unconnected with food preservation may be a tad unwise.
The Guardian story has all the hallmarks of one tentacle of a corporate management system doing its own thing without any regard for the purposes of the other tentacle that is trying to run its operations in the best way it knows for the goods and services it offers.
If it all goes ahead it will be interesting to see the results.
But this is a small place, revamped once since it was built which was at least a couple of decades ago and with the door systems retrofitted to mostly existing units a year or so back.
The point being that if a device is designed to do a certain job in a certain way and you then modify the device or expect it so still perform under a different operating regime ... then sometimes things do not work out quite as planned. Or worse.
There again - this particular building has a flat(ish) roof and spotting a lot of buckets sitting around this evening after about 12 hours of fairly persistent rain a chat with a member of staff led to the comment that the nominally flat roof does have a number of dips in it that can encourage the collection of water and so lead to leaks.
There may be some common aspects of the maintenance policy principles that lead to both dodgy chillers and roof leaks.
Fortunately I don't think it's a big enough place to feature in a list of locations that might make up part of a proposal to NG for any sort of load shedding or generation supporting activities.
Interim Report into the Low Frequency Demand Disconnection (LFDD) following Generator Trips and Frequency Excursion on 9 Aug 2019
Here:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2019/08...
A very interesting read
Basically, Lightning strikes, Units Trip, bit of a Black Out, System back to normal in 30 minutes, Everyone Happy......Not quite
Here:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2019/08...
A very interesting read
Basically, Lightning strikes, Units Trip, bit of a Black Out, System back to normal in 30 minutes, Everyone Happy......Not quite
phumy said:
Interim Report into the Low Frequency Demand Disconnection (LFDD) following Generator Trips and Frequency Excursion on 9 Aug 2019
Here:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2019/08...
A very interesting read
Basically, Lightning strikes, Units Trip, bit of a Black Out, System back to normal in 30 minutes, Everyone Happy......Not quite
Thought the interview about this on R4 this morning was quite enlightening. They've confirmed they've not determined how the events were related yet - they don't know which, if any, was triggered by the others, but also stated that the rail companies need to investigate why the trains were immobilised until engineers could get out to them to reboot their systems. Had they been able to restart either under driver control or remotely, then delays would have been under 30 minutes, not several hours.Here:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2019/08...
A very interesting read
Basically, Lightning strikes, Units Trip, bit of a Black Out, System back to normal in 30 minutes, Everyone Happy......Not quite
The best bit is that the trains didnt stop because the power was shut down, they stopped when they shouldn't have, and then didnt go again when expected. 
The sound of National Grid kicking that ball straight at Thameslink and Network Rail.
Other interesting point is that Ipswich Hospital didn't lose any power either, but their internal protection systems kicked in (presumably a response to the low frequency?), and disconnected the power unnecessarily.
The sound of National Grid kicking that ball straight at Thameslink and Network Rail.
Other interesting point is that Ipswich Hospital didn't lose any power either, but their internal protection systems kicked in (presumably a response to the low frequency?), and disconnected the power unnecessarily.
Edited by Condi on Tuesday 20th August 09:24
And that's on top of other lessons already being learned atm.
“It turned out the wakeup call was about our own side,” Gibbs said in a phone interview. “It was kind of crushing to discover that the things I believed in weren’t real, first of all, and then to discover not only are the solar panels and wind turbines not going to save us … but that there is this whole dark side of the corporate money … It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”
“It turned out the wakeup call was about our own side,” Gibbs said in a phone interview. “It was kind of crushing to discover that the things I believed in weren’t real, first of all, and then to discover not only are the solar panels and wind turbines not going to save us … but that there is this whole dark side of the corporate money … It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”
turbobloke said:
And that's on top of other lessons already being learned atm.
“It turned out the wakeup call was about our own side,” Gibbs said in a phone interview. “It was kind of crushing to discover that the things I believed in weren’t real, first of all, and then to discover not only are the solar panels and wind turbines not going to save us … but that there is this whole dark side of the corporate money … It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”
Who is Gibbs, where did you get this from, and what relevance does it have to what is being discussed? “It turned out the wakeup call was about our own side,” Gibbs said in a phone interview. “It was kind of crushing to discover that the things I believed in weren’t real, first of all, and then to discover not only are the solar panels and wind turbines not going to save us … but that there is this whole dark side of the corporate money … It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”
Condi said:
turbobloke said:
And that's on top of other lessons already being learned atm.
“It turned out the wakeup call was about our own side,” Gibbs said in a phone interview. “It was kind of crushing to discover that the things I believed in weren’t real, first of all, and then to discover not only are the solar panels and wind turbines not going to save us … but that there is this whole dark side of the corporate money … It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”
Who is Gibbs, where did you get this from, and what relevance does it have to what is being discussed? “It turned out the wakeup call was about our own side,” Gibbs said in a phone interview. “It was kind of crushing to discover that the things I believed in weren’t real, first of all, and then to discover not only are the solar panels and wind turbines not going to save us … but that there is this whole dark side of the corporate money … It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/08/09/michael-moo...
Gibbs is a film producer.
turbojoke said:
And that's on top of other lessons already being learned atm.
“It turned out the wakeup call was about our own side,” Gibbs said in a phone interview. “It was kind of crushing to discover that the things I believed in weren’t real, first of all, and then to discover not only are the solar panels and wind turbines not going to save us … but that there is this whole dark side of the corporate money … It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”
LMAO, are you back to quoting shockumentary film producers?“It turned out the wakeup call was about our own side,” Gibbs said in a phone interview. “It was kind of crushing to discover that the things I believed in weren’t real, first of all, and then to discover not only are the solar panels and wind turbines not going to save us … but that there is this whole dark side of the corporate money … It dawned on me that these technologies were just another profit center.”
I appreciate it's the FT (access); their interpretation of the report points a finger at the windfarm.
https://www.ft.com/content/8b738eac-c024-11e9-89e2...
So far so good but let's hope the price of fog remains stable going forward, and the grid likewise.
https://www.ft.com/content/8b738eac-c024-11e9-89e2...
So far so good but let's hope the price of fog remains stable going forward, and the grid likewise.
El stovey said:
Wattsupwiththat from breitbart.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/08/09/michael-moo...
Gibbs is a film producer.
I see, thanks. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/08/09/michael-moo...
Gibbs is a film producer.
So, in short, nothing to do with what is being discussed, comments from someone who knows little about the subject (and is trying to promote his film), and published on a website with known bias.
Usual service is resumed.
For those who can't access the FT article, there's second-hand coverage here from carbonbrief. It's not as neutral but reasonably live and earthy, scroll down beneath the global warming advocacy.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/daily-brief/national-g...
https://www.carbonbrief.org/daily-brief/national-g...
turbobloke said:
For those who can't access the FT article, there's second-hand coverage here from carbonbrief. It's not as neutral, scroll down beneath the global warming advocacy.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/daily-brief/national-g...
Luckily for anyone with any common sense you can see its factually incorrect; https://www.carbonbrief.org/daily-brief/national-g...
Carbon Brief Website said:
The provisional findings, submitted on Friday, say that the Hornsea offshore wind farm may have tripped offline seconds before a smaller gas-fired station also went out.
Whereas National Grid have both units tripping within the same second, and given the level of accuracy RWE have provided, the gas set could have started failing first.National Grid Report said:
16:52:33.728 Hornsea started deloading Orsted
16:52:33.835 Hornsea stabilised at 62MW and injecting 21 MVAR [737 MW of cumulative infeed loss] Orsted
16:52:34 Little Barford Steam Turbine trips 244MW instantaneously. Source:RWE [981MW of cumulative infeed loss] RWE
Annoying things, facts, arn't they....? 16:52:33.835 Hornsea stabilised at 62MW and injecting 21 MVAR [737 MW of cumulative infeed loss] Orsted
16:52:34 Little Barford Steam Turbine trips 244MW instantaneously. Source:RWE [981MW of cumulative infeed loss] RWE
turbobloke said:
For those who can't access the FT article, there's second-hand coverage here from carbonbrief. It's not as neutral but reasonably live and earthy, scroll down beneath the global warming advocacy.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/daily-brief/national-g...
That’s the problem when you get your info from advocacy blogs like carbon brief and breitbart and wattsupwiththat the actual (more neutral) articles are usually always behind paywalls.https://www.carbonbrief.org/daily-brief/national-g...
Because you constantly have to hide where you got it from, your links never work.
Best just go back to just posting wattsupwiththat and gwpf links, where you found it and at least then posters might see some of the article and be able to see bias applied by the blogs.
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