The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain

[Biggy Stardust]

PushedDover said:

Please define the ‘average car owner’ with citations?

Oh and ditto ‘sensible’ distances.

TIA

As an example, inhabitants of terraced city houses. There are many of these, sufficient that there needn't be a citation for you to accept that they exist.

Sensible distance might be defined as within sufficient range to connect the car to the house's electrical system for the purposes mentioned a few posts ago, ie domestic charging, load levelling & similar.

YWIA

[dickymint]

Evanivitch said:

dickymint said:

All well and good but none of this addresses the problem of your average car owner that has no access to charge their car within a "sensible" distance of their home.

What's the average annual mileage?
What's the range of a 50kWh car?
How long would it take to charge a 50kWh at a rapid?
How long would it take to charge a 50kWh at a workplace on a 7kW charger?

12K?
Had to Google the rest. So ....

170 – 217 miles
1 hour 10 mins
7 hours 30 minutes

The town i live in (beautiful but expensive place to buy property) has very little off road parking, no chance whatsoever of fitting on road charging points - wont even allow roads to be dug up for fibre broadband to house.

Are you suggesting that most people work an eight hour day at a place of work with a 7kW charger? Not where I live sorry.

That's not even going into the realms of people not as fortunate of myself and live in high rise flats etc etc etc. The only way this will work is to deny many many people the ability to own and run a car.

[Evanivitch]

Biggy Stardust said:

As an example, inhabitants of terraced city houses. There are many of these, sufficient that there needn't be a citation for you to accept that they exist.

Sensible distance might be defined as within sufficient range to connect the car to the house's electrical system for the purposes mentioned a few posts ago, ie domestic charging, load levelling & similar.

YWIA

Do inhabitants of terraced city houses have fuel pumps at home?

[dickymint]

Evanivitch said:

Biggy Stardust said:

As an example, inhabitants of terraced city houses. There are many of these, sufficient that there needn't be a citation for you to accept that they exist.

Sensible distance might be defined as within sufficient range to connect the car to the house's electrical system for the purposes mentioned a few posts ago, ie domestic charging, load levelling & similar.

YWIA

Do inhabitants of terraced city houses have fuel pumps at home?

Nope but a can of petrol in the boot helps

[rscott]

dickymint said:

Evanivitch said:

dickymint said:

All well and good but none of this addresses the problem of your average car owner that has no access to charge their car within a "sensible" distance of their home.

What's the average annual mileage?
What's the range of a 50kWh car?
How long would it take to charge a 50kWh at a rapid?
How long would it take to charge a 50kWh at a workplace on a 7kW charger?

12K?
Had to Google the rest. So ....

170 – 217 miles
1 hour 10 mins
7 hours 30 minutes

The town i live in (beautiful but expensive place to buy property) has very little off road parking, no chance whatsoever of fitting on road charging points - wont even allow roads to be dug up for fibre broadband to house.

Are you suggesting that most people work an eight hour day at a place of work with a 7kW charger? Not where I live sorry.

That's not even going into the realms of people not as fortunate of myself and live in high rise flats etc etc etc. The only way this will work is to deny many many people the ability to own and run a car.

Average annual mileage is around 7,000 miles, not 12,000. That's based on studies of MOT data - https://www.bymiles.co.uk/insure/magazine/mot-data...

[Evanivitch]

dickymint said:

12K?
Had to Google the rest. So ....

Probably should have just used Google to start.

So because they didn't dig the streets for broadband they won't do it for car charging? I think that's a pretty baseless assumption. Bad habit that.

[Randy Winkman]

Evanivitch said:

Biggy Stardust said:

As an example, inhabitants of terraced city houses. There are many of these, sufficient that there needn't be a citation for you to accept that they exist.

Sensible distance might be defined as within sufficient range to connect the car to the house's electrical system for the purposes mentioned a few posts ago, ie domestic charging, load levelling & similar.

YWIA

Do inhabitants of terraced city houses have fuel pumps at home?

I live in such a house and whilst I don't have a fuel pump at home I can stop at a petrol station once a week for 5 mins. So getting fuel isnt really an issue.

I'm a big fan of electric cars and think they are the future. But I don't see how I or lots of other people could realistically own one at the moment. Or even in the next 5 years.

[PushedDover]

Biggy Stardust said:

PushedDover said:

Please define the ‘average car owner’ with citations?

Oh and ditto ‘sensible’ distances.

TIA

As an example, inhabitants of terraced city houses. There are many of these, sufficient that there needn't be a citation for you to accept that they exist.

Sensible distance might be defined as within sufficient range to connect the car to the house's electrical system for the purposes mentioned a few posts ago, ie domestic charging, load levelling & similar.

YWIA

He said ‘average’ as a know fact

[PushedDover]

dickymint said:

12K?
Had to Google the rest. So ....

170 – 217 miles
1 hour 10 mins
7 hours 30 minutes

The town i live in (beautiful but expensive place to buy property) has very little off road parking, no chance whatsoever of fitting on road charging points - wont even allow roads to be dug up for fibre broadband to house.

Are you suggesting that most people work an eight hour day at a place of work with a 7kW charger? Not where I live sorry.

That's not even going into the realms of people not as fortunate of myself and live in high rise flats etc etc etc. The only way this will work is to deny many many people the ability to own and run a car.

Ah the classic ‘need to fill charge daily’ twaddle

If so your Ave mileages are way out
Your version equates to circa 39000 miles a year (150 mile recharge, 5 days a week)


7000/52 = 135 miles a week or one full charge, or randomly 8hrs charging here and there through the week (office, supermarket, station etc)

[robinessex]

Nickgnome said:

robinessex said:

Nickgnome said:

Yes we have huge legacy stock of draughty poorly insulated houses.

Fix them, then you'll need an air heat exchange system installed to cure the resulting condensation. Don't ask me how I know. Subsidy for that?

I've lived in a solid wall cottage built in 1830, So I know It can be done without condensation problems. In fact I've upgraded every subsequent house including two very low energy self builds and I am about to start my next, maybe, final one.

It may help that I spent my life in building services.

Once a house is sealed up airtight, condesation is almost certain. Try putting your cars heating on re-cycle, and watch the windows steam up.

https://www.backtoearth.co.uk/does-making-a-house-...

Extract:-

"Poor ventilation whether with or without good levels of insulation can cause high levels of humidity, allow the growth of certain mould species and even damage the fabric of the building through condensation. Off-gassing from synthetic insulation materials, carpets, furniture and paints can create high levels of VOC’s (volatile Organic Compounds) in the air and these can combine with mould spores to seriously damage the health of those living in the building. Having breathable walls/roof (vapour permeable) goes a very very small way to helping but can only deal with 1-2% of the moisture we typically produce in a day."

Edited by robinessex on Sunday 25th April 11:49

[Condi]

Randy Winkman said:

I'm a big fan of electric cars and think they are the future. But I don't see how I or lots of other people could realistically own one at the moment. Or even in the next 5 years.

There is a lot of on street infrastructure going in. In Wandsworth some streets had charging points built into all street lights which seemed a neat idea. No "EV parking spots" you could just park and plug into the nearest lamp-post. Other places have chargers at shopping centers, plug in for an hour or so when doing your shop.

A petrol car in London, Manchester, Bristol etc makes no sense at all, either from a cost perspective (low MPG sat in traffic) or from an air quality/emissions perspective. For more people living further out then it becomes more of an issue, but then those are the people more likely to have a drive or the ability to charge at home.

My brother has a company Tesla and it's not an issue. Charge up at night if required. Cost per mile about 2p compared with 13p on diesel, and the company car tax is very low. Its an absolute no brainer, even though his job requires a lot of driving. You'd be mad to buy a new petrol or diesel car now, the second hand market for it in 5 years time is going to look very difficult.

[robinessex]

Randy Winkman said:

Cost per mile about 2p compared with 13p on diesel.

That'll end one day, then a lot of people are going to get a shock.

Edited by robinessex on Sunday 25th April 13:05

[Nickgnome]

robinessex said:

Nickgnome said:

robinessex said:

Nickgnome said:

Yes we have huge legacy stock of draughty poorly insulated houses.

Fix them, then you'll need an air heat exchange system installed to cure the resulting condensation. Don't ask me how I know. Subsidy for that?

I've lived in a solid wall cottage built in 1830, So I know It can be done without condensation problems. In fact I've upgraded every subsequent house including two very low energy self builds and I am about to start my next, maybe, final one.

It may help that I spent my life in building services.

Once a house is sealed up airtight, condesation is almost certain. Try putting your cars heating on re-cycle, and watch the windows steam up.

https://www.backtoearth.co.uk/does-making-a-house-...

Extract:-

"Poor ventilation whether with or without good levels of insulation can cause high levels of humidity, allow the growth of certain mould species and even damage the fabric of the building through condensation. Off-gassing from synthetic insulation materials, carpets, furniture and paints can create high levels of VOC’s (volatile Organic Compounds) in the air and these can combine with mould spores to seriously damage the health of those living in the building. Having breathable walls/roof (vapour permeable) goes a very very small way to helping but can only deal with 1-2% of the moisture we typically produce in a day."

Edited by robinessex on Sunday 25th April 11:49

Who are you trying to reach?

You are preaching to someone who can design vent systems including dehumidification.

It is not difficult.

There is no need for poor ventilation within a housed whether new or old.

[dickymint]

Nickgnome said:

robinessex said:

Nickgnome said:

robinessex said:

Nickgnome said:

Yes we have huge legacy stock of draughty poorly insulated houses.

Fix them, then you'll need an air heat exchange system installed to cure the resulting condensation. Don't ask me how I know. Subsidy for that?

I've lived in a solid wall cottage built in 1830, So I know It can be done without condensation problems. In fact I've upgraded every subsequent house including two very low energy self builds and I am about to start my next, maybe, final one.

It may help that I spent my life in building services.

Once a house is sealed up airtight, condesation is almost certain. Try putting your cars heating on re-cycle, and watch the windows steam up.

https://www.backtoearth.co.uk/does-making-a-house-...

Extract:-

"Poor ventilation whether with or without good levels of insulation can cause high levels of humidity, allow the growth of certain mould species and even damage the fabric of the building through condensation. Off-gassing from synthetic insulation materials, carpets, furniture and paints can create high levels of VOC’s (volatile Organic Compounds) in the air and these can combine with mould spores to seriously damage the health of those living in the building. Having breathable walls/roof (vapour permeable) goes a very very small way to helping but can only deal with 1-2% of the moisture we typically produce in a day."

Edited by robinessex on Sunday 25th April 11:49

Who are you trying to reach?

You are preaching to someone who can design vent systems including dehumidification.

It is not difficult.

There is no need for poor ventilation within a housed whether new or old.

Of course there is "no need" and I know "it's not difficult" but bloody expensive to retro-fit into say a fifties 3 bed semi. Who's going to pay for that? This government can't even sort out grants for decent insulation apart from plonking some Rockwool in your loft or squirting your cavity with gunk that subsequently fails and causes more problems. Every "green deal" to date has failed. Fat chance of converting much of the existing housing stock.

[Nickgnome]

dickymint said:

Of course there is "no need" and I know "it's not difficult" but bloody expensive to retro-fit into say a fifties 3 bed semi. Who's going to pay for that? This government can't even sort out grants for decent insulation apart from plonking some Rockwool in your loft or squirting your cavity with gunk that subsequently fails and causes more problems. Every "green deal" to date has failed. Fat chance of converting much of the existing housing stock.

I cannot deny that this government have made a complete mess of the 'Green Deal'

However money is currently very cheap and much legacy property has high maintenance costs anyway.

I see around me many old houses having major refurbishments and given a new lease of life. It's a pity that a grant to improve energy efficiency could not have been incorporated.

I recently did one myself but self funded all the thermal improvements. Not quite zero energy but massively reduced even with a much larger NIA.

[Harrison Bergeron]

robinessex said:

Condi said:

Cost per mile about 2p compared with 13p on diesel.

That'll end one day, then a lot of people are going to get a shock.

That’s something I’ve always been curious about. Petrol is cheap , the tax isn’t.
At about 14 to 15p per kWh* and 3 miles per kWh your electric car is about 8p cheaper than my average 40mpg one.
If everyone switches to electric the gov is going to take a bath on tax as that 8p difference is pretty much all tax.

• used uswitch as I’ve no idea about variable rates at night and I’m typing on an iPad outside in the garden.

[rscott]

Harrison Bergeron said:

robinessex said:

Condi said:

Cost per mile about 2p compared with 13p on diesel.

That'll end one day, then a lot of people are going to get a shock.

That’s something I’ve always been curious about. Petrol is cheap , the tax isn’t.
At about 14 to 15p per kWh* and 3 miles per kWh your electric car is about 8p cheaper than my average 40mpg one.
If everyone switches to electric the gov is going to take a bath on tax as that 8p difference is pretty much all tax.

• used uswitch as I’ve no idea about variable rates at night and I’m typing on an iPad outside in the garden.

I'd think they'll introduce per mile charging at the same rate across all vehicle types, but leave a degree of tax on petrol/diesel to ensure that's always the most expensive option.

[Gary C]

rscott said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

robinessex said:

Condi said:

Cost per mile about 2p compared with 13p on diesel.

That'll end one day, then a lot of people are going to get a shock.

That’s something I’ve always been curious about. Petrol is cheap , the tax isn’t.
At about 14 to 15p per kWh* and 3 miles per kWh your electric car is about 8p cheaper than my average 40mpg one.
If everyone switches to electric the gov is going to take a bath on tax as that 8p difference is pretty much all tax.

• used uswitch as I’ve no idea about variable rates at night and I’m typing on an iPad outside in the garden.

I'd think they'll introduce per mile charging at the same rate across all vehicle types, but leave a degree of tax on petrol/diesel to ensure that's always the most expensive option.

One thing is for certain, as the tax revenue is lost from petrol/diesel, it will be recovered from something else and the most obvious target would be the motorist.

Charging would be really difficult if not impossible, politically if it was a blanket tax on electricity, and technically if it was put on vehicle charging itself.

Will be interesting to see what they do, but the smug EV owners, make hay while the sun shines

[dickymint]

Gary C said:

rscott said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

robinessex said:

Condi said:

Cost per mile about 2p compared with 13p on diesel.

That'll end one day, then a lot of people are going to get a shock.

That’s something I’ve always been curious about. Petrol is cheap , the tax isn’t.
At about 14 to 15p per kWh* and 3 miles per kWh your electric car is about 8p cheaper than my average 40mpg one.
If everyone switches to electric the gov is going to take a bath on tax as that 8p difference is pretty much all tax.

• used uswitch as I’ve no idea about variable rates at night and I’m typing on an iPad outside in the garden.

I'd think they'll introduce per mile charging at the same rate across all vehicle types, but leave a degree of tax on petrol/diesel to ensure that's always the most expensive option.

One thing is for certain, as the tax revenue is lost from petrol/diesel, it will be recovered from something else and the most obvious target would be the motorist.

Charging would be really difficult if not impossible, politically if it was a blanket tax on electricity, and technically if it was put on vehicle charging itself.

Will be interesting to see what they do, but the smug EV owners, make hay while the sun shines

As do the early adopters of the solar FIT.

My guess is that all households will be taxed (much like now with the green tax on the back of your bill) regardless if you have an EV or not.

Edit: as always the poor will pay more!

[Gary C]

dickymint said:

As do the early adopters of the solar FIT.

My guess is that all households will be taxed (much like now with the green tax on the back of your bill) regardless if you have an EV or not.

Edit: as always the poor will pay more!

I can't see that being palatable, but its always a possibility.

Being Gov it will probably end up being a fudge. Some road pricing, some increase in vehicle duty, some general taxation, some energy taxes.

In the end, the middle will pay more ! (as the most taxed group as always)