Explosions reported in Manchester?
Discussion
jjlynn27 said:
Burwood said:
jjlynn27 said:
Burwood said:
It's been said before. I despair at the incidence you hear 'he was known to security services'. The public should be demanding that the government allocate significant resources to security services. Apparently the device was highly sophisticated and used materials difficult to procure. His own family informed on him several times. FFS what will it take to get these people under 24/7 surveillance?
Who was Home Office minister until very recently? It'll take strong and stable leader.
If that's the best reason to have May to lead us, we are pretty f
ked up. There must be someone better within Cons. 
Looking at all the press and meeja this morning can we just stop all this knee jerk stuff 
If theres a road crash do you close all roads ( ok its beginning to go thta way)
There is a chance of another bomb going off but everyone cant all stay in doors just in case
There's always been a risk
It's happened. Carry on as per normal otherwise all this stuff is just what the terrorists were hoping for
Stop posting in this thread too
If theres a road crash do you close all roads ( ok its beginning to go thta way)
There is a chance of another bomb going off but everyone cant all stay in doors just in case
There's always been a risk
It's happened. Carry on as per normal otherwise all this stuff is just what the terrorists were hoping for
Stop posting in this thread too
Dr Jekyll said:
Before communications technology reached it's current level terrorists still communicated. They chatted in cafes or used landlines, or sent letters to each other. The security services managed without bugging every café keeping records of every phonecall or opening every letter.
The Hatton Garden gang made their plans in a pub, Nobody is suggesting every landlord must tape every conversation their customers have and keep them for years in case the authorities find it useful. So why is it inevitable for internet comms?
The Hatton Garden gang were caught by cellphone records confirming their meetings in pubs and cafes, and combing of 100's of hours of CCTV, exactly the sort of mass surveillance I refer to. If it wasn't for that they would be free. The Hatton Garden gang made their plans in a pub, Nobody is suggesting every landlord must tape every conversation their customers have and keep them for years in case the authorities find it useful. So why is it inevitable for internet comms?
And terrorism 15+ years ago was different - a small number of organisations with clearly identifiable goals. Groups were identifiable and infiltratable, they had known members, structures and meeting places. Nowadays they can recruit anyone anywhere in no time at all, using any one of hundreds of potential communication platforms, and that person can act alone without any training or equipment or even ever meeting anyone in real life.
All the 100's / 1000's that went off to Syria etc and then came back - are you suggesting that they are all followed around by teams of people? Probably not possible, only way to identify the risks is to keep tons of data and sift it looking for indications of patterns of language / behavior. Each one of them could be talking to 100's / 1000's of people globally online. These all need to be electronically monitored to see if they are indicating any signs of turning. It only takes one to decide to take up a cause and then you get an incident like Westminster or last night. I think the potential reach of terrorists is now so great with the internet being unregulated, that mass surveillance is totally inevitable. I really can't see it working any other way
ETA this is probably why these people are always 'known to the security services', due to mass surveillance they must be monitoring 10'000's of people using algorithms to try and assess risk. It can't be physically possible to manually follow / monitor them all, or predict when one will decide to drive a car into a crowd or start slashing with a knife. And as soon as there is any talk of censorship of the web - to try and reduce / remove exposure to hateful material - there is derision and uproar. The security services have got a hand tied behind their back, and a lot of the time we never even get to hear of the plots they stop.
Edited by jakesmith on Wednesday 24th May 08:13
jdw100 said:
I've had some interesting discussions with people that have worked with disaffected youth from Luton.
Looking at the guys that went (or tried to go) to join ISIS. A lot of them were not allowed girlfriends in the UK or to have friends outside the Muslim community. They didn't do well at school and were facing the prospect of life working in a phone shop or similar before marrying someone at the behest of their parents.
They feel that the world is against them and that the UK is unfair and racist, life on the whole is not looking good for them.
Offer some of these guys the chance to travel to a foreign land, dress in cool black paramilitary outfits, get trained in weapons (just like in their computer games) have a pistol in a shoulder holster and fight with people who are their brothers against all that is unfair. They can have a wife that they choose as well, get paid a decent wage and be seen as a hero - well I imagine as lot of disafffected young guys would jump at this kind of opportunity.
Quite a few have taken up this offer, as we know. Some immediately regret it as they have little understanding of what happens in a battle (outside of the computer version) or what it takes to live in combat conditions. However some of them it's been the making of, same as for other guys who join the army and thrive on the discipline etc.
I was told that many of these lads had almost zero understanding of the geopolitics behind their cause beyond 'they're killing our brothers and the West hates Muslims'.
Good post.Looking at the guys that went (or tried to go) to join ISIS. A lot of them were not allowed girlfriends in the UK or to have friends outside the Muslim community. They didn't do well at school and were facing the prospect of life working in a phone shop or similar before marrying someone at the behest of their parents.
They feel that the world is against them and that the UK is unfair and racist, life on the whole is not looking good for them.
Offer some of these guys the chance to travel to a foreign land, dress in cool black paramilitary outfits, get trained in weapons (just like in their computer games) have a pistol in a shoulder holster and fight with people who are their brothers against all that is unfair. They can have a wife that they choose as well, get paid a decent wage and be seen as a hero - well I imagine as lot of disafffected young guys would jump at this kind of opportunity.
Quite a few have taken up this offer, as we know. Some immediately regret it as they have little understanding of what happens in a battle (outside of the computer version) or what it takes to live in combat conditions. However some of them it's been the making of, same as for other guys who join the army and thrive on the discipline etc.
I was told that many of these lads had almost zero understanding of the geopolitics behind their cause beyond 'they're killing our brothers and the West hates Muslims'.
Back in Feb this year, an episode of BBC R4's Beyond Belief was on the topic of Pakistan: Link
Some very interesting points aired which went some way as an explanation (to me at least) why there seems to be such an issue from certain communities in the UK.
The things that struck me as most relevant: firstly, the broken patriarchal model that is prevalent within many Islamic communities from third world countries. Not of course limited to Islamic countries in the third world, but they seem to be the ones with the biggest problems, both exported into the UK & elsewhere.
Secondly, and a natural side effect of the first point is the insular nature of the communities that adopt & adhere to such a structure.
This is where I believe that efforts should be concentrated, at least in the UK to counter the obvious problems. It goes right to the heart of the issues over integration.
I think this is why there are many voices calling for the leaders of Islam in the UK to publicly align with condemnation of these acts & others (Rotheram etc). Not that they don't (to a lesser or greater degree). But what it looks like to many people in the UK outside Islam is a large, foreign body right in the middle of their livelihood. And on the face of it, they have nothing in common.
Not every Muslim will be under such an insidious yoke & one would hope that those in the UK with a more enlightened outlook would be eager to consign the vile controlling nature within communities to history.
Everyone has their anecdotal stories about past experiences with people, the facts of which may vary. Opinions are formed, aired, reinforced & entrenched. But none of that necessarily works towards a solution.
It's possible to support charities which provide foreign aid to the poor, innocents who suffer at the hands of others. It's also possible to feel a keen resentment when one hears of an immigrant who is granted a new life in the UK who then commits a crime.
The whole thing is complex & difficult, possibly the biggest challenge faced by Western countries.
One more thing; please don't go for the kill if you find offense in something I've written, I haven't set out to offend.
shed driver said:
The latest casualty Olivia Campbell is at the same school as my youngest son, Adam Lawler they young man injured was at his primary school and now at the same high school. It's just now beginning to sink home.
SD.
I know ALL deaths in this are tragic and I know its terrible for all parents. I am not diminishing one against another.SD.
This has really hit me badly as throughout the day there were clips of her Mum appealing for her to contact her. Or for any information about her. Her Mummy stood in her back garden pleading for news.
I had just hoped that she would appear to be ok or found
But not like this
That poor poor woman
jakesmith said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Before communications technology reached it's current level terrorists still communicated. They chatted in cafes or used landlines, or sent letters to each other. The security services managed without bugging every café keeping records of every phonecall or opening every letter.
The Hatton Garden gang made their plans in a pub, Nobody is suggesting every landlord must tape every conversation their customers have and keep them for years in case the authorities find it useful. So why is it inevitable for internet comms?
The Hatton Garden gang were caught by cellphone records confirming their meetings in pubs and cafes, and combing of 100's of hours of CCTV, exactly the sort of mass surveillance I refer to. If it wasn't for that they would be free. The Hatton Garden gang made their plans in a pub, Nobody is suggesting every landlord must tape every conversation their customers have and keep them for years in case the authorities find it useful. So why is it inevitable for internet comms?
And terrorism 15+ years ago was different - a small number of organisations with clearly identifiable goals. Groups were identifiable and infiltratable, they had known members, structures and meeting places. Nowadays they can recruit anyone anywhere in no time at all, using any one of hundreds of potential communication platforms, and that person can act alone without any training or equipment or even ever meeting anyone in real life.
All the 100's / 1000's that went off to Syria etc and then came back - are you suggesting that they are all followed around by teams of people? Probably not possible, only way to identify the risks is to keep tons of data and sift it looking for indications of patterns of language / behavior. Each one of them could be talking to 100's / 1000's of people globally online. These all need to be electronically monitored to see if they are indicating any signs of turning. It only takes one to decide to take up a cause and then you get an incident like Westminster or last night. I think the potential reach of terrorists is now so great with the internet being unregulated, that mass surveillance is totally inevitable. I really can't see it working any other way
e21Mark said:
I may be naive about the workings of Twitter but I'd assumed that content like this would be enough for accounts to be disabled, as opposed to ticking a box on registration. We often hear how social media is used to groom people to their cause so isn't it common sense to at least try and stop that happening?
They're screenshots from Telegram, a different social media platform developed by a Russian company. They don't cooperate with security services to anything like the extent Twitter & Facebook do.The apps encrypt their traiffc to and from the Telegram servers, so it's highly likely even if someone is being monitored, it's not possible to see what they're doing on that site.
Lefty said:
I saw some on farceberk saying that "they ought to bring back the death penalty".
For suicide bombers.
https://medium.com/incerto/the-skin-of-others-in-your-game-3f51d8ccc3fb on farceberk saying that "they ought to bring back the death penalty".For suicide bombers.
[quote]
How to Put Skin in the Game of Suicide Bombers
Can someone punish the family for crimes of an individual? The scriptures are self-contradictory enough that you can get both answers from the Old Testament. Exodus and Numbers show God as “visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third or fourth generation”. Deuteronomy makes a separation: “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.”[5] Even today the question isn’t fully settled, nor is the answer clear-cut. You are not responsible for the debt of your parents, but German taxpayers are still responsible for war reparations for crimes committed by their grandparents and great-grandparents. And even in ancient times when debt was a burden that crossed generations, the answer wasn’t clear cut then: there was a balancing mechanism of periodic (literal) cleaning of the slate, with jubilee debt forgiveness.
Sometimes the answer is clear, as in the case of terrorism. You kill my family and think that you have impunity; I will make yours pay some price for it. Indirect responsibility isn’t part of the standard crime and punishment methodology of a civilized society, but confronting terrorists (who threaten innocents) isn’t standard either. For we have rarely in history confronted a situation in which the perpetrator of a crime has a completely asymmetric payoff, an upside from death while committing it.
We are totally defenseless in front of a deluded person willing to kill scores of innocents without any true downside, that is, skin in the game: he believes that both successes and failures are upsides. In Northern Lebanon, Alawi are terrorized of the Salafis wearing “jackets” since they can activate them in a public place and there is no way they can be “caught” without activation. Killing them on sight leads to false positives, but we can’t afford false negatives –with the result that we have instances of private citizens cornering and “hugging” the perceived self-bomber in places where detonation is less harmful. This is a form of counter-suicide bombing.
Explicit communal punishment can be used where other methods of justice have failed, provided it is done as an explicit method of justice and well-defined prior to the event so it becomes a deterrent and not an emotional reaction. One who is sacrificing himself for a perceived upside for a given collective needs a deterrent, so it is a form of injection of skin in the game in the system where all other methods are lacking. And the skin is visible: that very collective.
The only way we have left to control suicide-terrorists would be precisely to convince them that blowing themselves up is not the worse-case scenario for them, nor the end-scenario at all. Making their families and loved ones bear a financial burden –just as Germans as still paying for war crimes –would immediately add consequences to their actions, inject that element of skin in the game that is needed. This requires some care in preventing their families from feeling martyrdom –the penalty needs to be properly calibrated to be a nuisance without imparting any form of heroism to the person.
skyrover said:
Why do lefties go to such lengths to defend Islam?
I never see them joining protests/posting online in defense of Christianity or Judaism etc?
It's like the Turkeys voting for Christmas... madness.
Why do people like to always paint this as a left right issue, I'm probably what you would describe as a 'lefty' (especially by PH standards) but I despise religion. Tarring everyone woth the sam brush won't help this situation I never see them joining protests/posting online in defense of Christianity or Judaism etc?
It's like the Turkeys voting for Christmas... madness.
Jazzy Jag said:
So far everything is going according to the playbook.
Terrorist attack.
Huge media coverage
Lots of politicians using it to get their face on TV
Lessons will be learned
Lone Wolf.
Religion of peace
Only a small minority
What a wonderful multi cultural place this ia
Known to security services
Candle light vigils
.#pray for.....
Je suit many
Change your facebook photo to add filter
Rinse and repeat
And what really boiled my pi55 was the GMP spokesman on LBC who went to great lengths to tell ethnic groups that if they feel threatened or experience hate, they should report it to the police immediately.
Won't the police by a bit busy investigating 22 deaths or does a ethnic minorities feeling trump that?
ETA. I forgot about lighting up a building.
Very important to shine lights on a big public building
It's like you're reading my mind, man!Terrorist attack.
Huge media coverage
Lots of politicians using it to get their face on TV
Lessons will be learned
Lone Wolf.
Religion of peace
Only a small minority
What a wonderful multi cultural place this ia
Known to security services
Candle light vigils
.#pray for.....
Je suit many
Change your facebook photo to add filter
Rinse and repeat
And what really boiled my pi55 was the GMP spokesman on LBC who went to great lengths to tell ethnic groups that if they feel threatened or experience hate, they should report it to the police immediately.
Won't the police by a bit busy investigating 22 deaths or does a ethnic minorities feeling trump that?
ETA. I forgot about lighting up a building.
Very important to shine lights on a big public building
Does my head in too - I'll probably attract some ire for saying this, but I find it all so wishy washy; it's the exact opposite of the "keep calm and carry on" mentality. It doesn't make us look "stronger together" - it makes us look a bit pathetic to be honest. These terrorist cells probably laugh their heads off when they see it.
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