Explosions reported in Manchester?

[skyrover]

chrispmartha said:

Why do people like to always paint this as a left right issue, I'm probably what you would describe as a 'lefty' (especially by PH standards) but I despise religion. Tarring everyone woth the sam brush won't help this situation

Simply going off the guardian comments section.

A left wing newspaper, typically read and endorsed by the left

[jakesmith]

stuckmojo said:

Lefty said:

I saw some on farceberk saying that "they ought to bring back the death penalty".

For suicide bombers.

https://medium.com/incerto/the-skin-of-others-in-your-game-3f51d8ccc3fb

[quote]
How to Put Skin in the Game of Suicide Bombers
Can someone punish the family for crimes of an individual? The scriptures are self-contradictory enough that you can get both answers from the Old Testament. Exodus and Numbers show God as “visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third or fourth generation”. Deuteronomy makes a separation: “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.”[5] Even today the question isn’t fully settled, nor is the answer clear-cut. You are not responsible for the debt of your parents, but German taxpayers are still responsible for war reparations for crimes committed by their grandparents and great-grandparents. And even in ancient times when debt was a burden that crossed generations, the answer wasn’t clear cut then: there was a balancing mechanism of periodic (literal) cleaning of the slate, with jubilee debt forgiveness.
Sometimes the answer is clear, as in the case of terrorism. You kill my family and think that you have impunity; I will make yours pay some price for it. Indirect responsibility isn’t part of the standard crime and punishment methodology of a civilized society, but confronting terrorists (who threaten innocents) isn’t standard either. For we have rarely in history confronted a situation in which the perpetrator of a crime has a completely asymmetric payoff, an upside from death while committing it.
We are totally defenseless in front of a deluded person willing to kill scores of innocents without any true downside, that is, skin in the game: he believes that both successes and failures are upsides. In Northern Lebanon, Alawi are terrorized of the Salafis wearing “jackets” since they can activate them in a public place and there is no way they can be “caught” without activation. Killing them on sight leads to false positives, but we can’t afford false negatives –with the result that we have instances of private citizens cornering and “hugging” the perceived self-bomber in places where detonation is less harmful. This is a form of counter-suicide bombing.
Explicit communal punishment can be used where other methods of justice have failed, provided it is done as an explicit method of justice and well-defined prior to the event so it becomes a deterrent and not an emotional reaction. One who is sacrificing himself for a perceived upside for a given collective needs a deterrent, so it is a form of injection of skin in the game in the system where all other methods are lacking. And the skin is visible: that very collective.
The only way we have left to control suicide-terrorists would be precisely to convince them that blowing themselves up is not the worse-case scenario for them, nor the end-scenario at all. Making their families and loved ones bear a financial burden –just as Germans as still paying for war crimes –would immediately add consequences to their actions, inject that element of skin in the game that is needed. This requires some care in preventing their families from feeling martyrdom –the penalty needs to be properly calibrated to be a nuisance without imparting any form of heroism to the person.

Oh dear. How about no? Perceived social injustice has been identified as a prime recruitment aid to ... terrorism. We live in a civilised society, that is what they seek to destroy. We aren't going to get anywhere by stooping to their level.

[anonymous-user]

ferrisbueller said:

Why does the house of Saud need 110 bn dollars of arms?

That much money buys a lot more than the hardware.

[V88Dicky]

shed driver said:

The latest casualty Olivia Campbell is at the same school as my youngest son, Adam Lawler they young man injured was at his primary school and now at the same high school. It's just now beginning to sink home.

SD.

I feel you're pain. The young couple from South Shields are friends of the family, still unaccounted for...

[Oceanic]

chrispmartha said:

Why do people like to always paint this as a left right issue, I'm probably what you would describe as a 'lefty' (especially by PH standards) but I despise religion. Tarring everyone woth the sam brush won't help this situation

Whoever voted for Blair during those many years must take some responsibility for the overall mess we find ourselves in now I feel. Same goes for Bush voters. We poked a hornet's nest and now we are getting bitten.

[Mintbird]

Seems to be working really well!

[Mintbird]

[chrispmartha]

skyrover said:

chrispmartha said:

Why do people like to always paint this as a left right issue, I'm probably what you would describe as a 'lefty' (especially by PH standards) but I despise religion. Tarring everyone woth the sam brush won't help this situation

Simply going off the guardian comments section.

A left wing newspaper, typically read and endorsed by the left

Well if you're going to make sweeping generalisations it's better getting a more balanced view, I hate to say it as it's a cliche but reading the guardian comments section to get a proper view of what people on the left side of the political fence think is just confirmation bias on your part.

[MikeT66]

skyrover said:

Why do lefties go to such lengths to defend Islam?

I never see them joining protests/posting online in defense of Christianity or Judaism etc?

It's like the Turkeys voting for Christmas... madness.

Not sure myself why that is. As a ‘lefty’ I find religion (particularly those that set themselves above and apart from the rest of society) to be the antithesis of one of the main tenets of left-wing politics - namely that all should be treated equal.

I don’t understand how you can defend gay/women’s rights of a progressive society and yet also defend the more extreme views of out-dated religions that would deny whole sections of humanity equal standing and rights – yet many of my left-wing friends do and cannot seem to see the contradiction of their stance.

Anyway, this is moving the thread in another direction. As a inhabitant of Manchester this awful event has certainly hit hard, but the city and its people will recover and remain strong – I have no doubt.

[ironv8]

Amber Rudd just been on gmtv with piers morgan, I've notice that all top cops/politicians have avoided the words muslim and islam in any interviews. Rudd came close but said ISIS and not Islamic State.

[Digga]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I'm updating my security status to BROWN ALERT.

[ferrisbueller]

desolate said:

ferrisbueller said:

Why does the house of Saud need 110 bn dollars of arms?

That much money buys a lot more than the hardware.

Still, without going off on a tangent, and I believe it's part of the bigger picture, why?

Are we so dependent on oil we're happy to fight on both sides of the conflict?

Let's face it, if there weren't oil how different would the middle east situation be. Arming the Sauds just feels like repeating history and creating issues further down the line.

This religious agenda used as justification for so many hideous deeds is being strengthened on one side and weakened on the other.

The infighting within Islam shows no signs of abating with no obvious conclusion. And we're now in it up to our nuts.

[ferrisbueller]

Mintbird said:

Seems to be working really well!

I wonder what would happen if those who do pray just gave it up.

[plasticpig]

ferrisbueller said:

Why does the house of Saud need 110 bn dollars of arms?

Because of the ongoing conflict with Iran. Currently it's a bit like the cold war with proxy wars in various trouble spots like Yemen and Syria.

[anonymous-user]

ferrisbueller said:

Still, without going off on a tangent, and I believe it's part of the bigger picture, why?

Are we so dependent on oil we're happy to fight on both sides of the conflict?

Let's face it, if there weren't oil how different would the middle east situation be. Arming the Sauds just feels like repeating history and creating issues further down the line.

This religious agenda used as justification for so many hideous deeds is being strengthened on one side and weakened on the other.

The infighting within Islam shows no signs of abating with no obvious conclusion. And we're now in it up to our nuts.

My only conclusion is that governments and politicians care more about money and power than they do about their citizens.

[JagLover]

chrispmartha said:

skyrover said:

chrispmartha said:

Why do people like to always paint this as a left right issue, I'm probably what you would describe as a 'lefty' (especially by PH standards) but I despise religion. Tarring everyone woth the sam brush won't help this situation

Simply going off the guardian comments section.

A left wing newspaper, typically read and endorsed by the left

Well if you're going to make sweeping generalisations it's better getting a more balanced view, I hate to say it as it's a cliche but reading the guardian comments section to get a proper view of what people on the left side of the political fence think is just confirmation bias on your part.

Depends on how we are defining the left really.

It is not about the old left right split on economic matters just a Metropolitan elite trying to impose their agenda on the rest of the country. As to why they love Islam so much despite Fundamentalist Islam opposing so much of their agenda, well their self loathing for their own civilization trumps all I'm afraid.

[mickk]

ferrisbueller said:

I wonder what would happen if those who do pray just gave it up.

It doesn't seem to be working.

[StevieBee]

johnxjsc1985 said:

Watching some of the US News channels it would appear they know as much as we do about them

The US and UK Intelligence services are effectively departments of the same organisation. When one talks of the 'special relationship' between the US and the UK, it is this that they refer to rather than the any and often passing political kinship.

Frederick Forsyth has a whole chapter on this in his autobiography. Very interesting read!

[Cobnapint]

bmw535i said:

As with every terrorist act committed in the UK that I can think of, the perpetrator was known to the security services.

I don't know why anyone is surprised by this.

It is a matter of when, not if, the next "known to the security services" terrorist commits his/her act.

This is true. It's just a matter of time before they trip.

The problem is this - our own laws, our courts and general high moral standards prevent us from doing much about it until it's too late.

Surely, seeing as nearly ALL the attackers in the ever growing list now come with 'already known to security services' on their CV, we have reached the stage where everybody on that list MUST now be regarded as a serious threat to our society and should be removed.

[227bhp]

Pothole said:

227bhp said:

D-Angle said:

rscott said:

227bhp said:

I'm sorry I CBA to wade through all 54 pages in this thread, but how come there are 15 people missing?

I'm assuming some are unconscious and injured in hospital. May well have lost any ID or phone at the time.

It's also possible that they have not been able to identify some of the bodies yet. Only a few have been named so far out of 22 which suggests this process isn't complete.

That's possibly it, but defies belief that 24hrs in they can't identify what they have in front of them?
It kind of points towards the fact that there must be not much left of them at all and that is quite sickening.
Sorry for bringing this up if so.

Kids don't carry ID

No, but they have identifying features such as clothes, faces, jewelry, blood type etc.