Explosions reported in Manchester?
Discussion
SystemParanoia said:
Burwood said:
RTB said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Here's a quick thought experiment:Name me a single moral action or thought that a religious person could do that an atheist couldn't do.
Now, name me one immoral action or thought that a religious person could do that an atheist couldn't or more accurately would have no motivation to do.
That's the problem with religion, it makes good people do bad things. All those examples you gave were simple human solidarity, they had precisely nothing to do with religion. In fact you almost made it sound like these people were showing kindness in spite of being religious (e.g. some Muslim!)
the earth is only 2000 year old 
I wasn't making out the people I mentioned were any better than the non-religious people with them. I was saying they were no more part of the problem than the non-religious. I would ask you to imagine yourself trying to explain to them how you thought they were.
Secondly I find it strange that some of you think that religion can make people do bad things and can be used to do bad things but you take offence at the thought that religion can make people do good things or can be used for good. It can't be one and not the other.
LDN said:
CoolHands said:
The religion isn't important IMO. if islam didn't do it for them they (mentally deficient people) would just invent one that provided what they needed, like scientology etc.
Disagree... there'll always be nutters - but nutters with idealogy driving them and justification / reward; is NOT good. How many scientilogists bomb innocents?I'm not sticking up for scientilogists by the way; can't stand them...
Once you understand that someone can think they are doing good by blowing up a room full of young girls then you understand the dangerous power of these ideologies such as Nazism, Communism and Fundamentalist Islam.
La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
I'm happy to scrub the funds for MH support if that resolves whatever issue it creates for you, plenty of better uses for the money than wasting it on religious fantasists.
Irrational beliefs don't amount to a MH issue. It's an idea that doesn't even get off the ground. V8 Fettler said:
We can reduce the likelihood of nutters bombing innocent people in British towns and cities if we remove the control that religion exerts; placing religions on the proscribed list removes funding and infrastructure at one fell swoop. Tough luck for the Presbyterians and the Methodists, but there we are.
One fell swoop? What happens if people refuse to give up their religion? Apparently history has one or two examples of people willing to die for their religious beliefs. Presumably, with you using the word 'prescribed' (which is found in criminal anti-terrorism law), it becomes an offence. What happens if people practice in secret? Who police's that?
The nice old Vicar down the road whom has spent his life helping others and doing charitable work. Does he go to prison if he refuses to give up his faith? Do you seize his house and life savings he's worked and paid for as part of your 'asset seizure' plan?
V8 Fettler said:
You're spinning yet again, I'm not "telling" anyone what to believe, merely offering a pragmatic solution to a problem that the "authorities" demonstrably can't deal with.
It speaks volumes you think your 'solution' is in anyway pragmatic. It's like some Nineteen Eighty-Four / A Clockwork Orange parody.
If people continue to be a member of a proscribed organisation then the legislation shall apply; proscribed meaning forbidden.
It's a pragmatic, broadbrush solution that deals with religious indoctrination at the source, which obviously isn't occurring at the moment. It will clearly not be favoured by the hand-wringers, but there we are.
MikeT66 said:
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: I can't work out if people are serious when they suggest banning any religion?
No - banning won't work and never has. What may work is removal of 'faith' schools, teaching of all religions in schools (I would prefer that children were taught about other viewpoints rather than just have to listen to indoctrinated parents) along with the importance of maintaining a liberal and questioing outlook, and removing religions from being afforded special protection in law. After all, if these 'gods' are so omnipotent, he/they/she shouldn't require man-made laws for protection surely...?V8 Fettler said:
The fact that some religionists kill innocent people in the name of religion demonstrates some of the mental health issues associated with religion.
They're probably not the ones who'll volunteer to receive treatment. Not really thought that one through. V8 Fettler said:
If people continue to be a member of a proscribed organisation then the legislation shall apply; proscribed meaning forbidden.
So does that mean the life-long helpful, charitable Vicar I described goes to prison and loses his house and life-savings if he declines to give-up his faith? People who propose pub-type solutions don't like examples that highlight the rather gaping flaws.
V8 Fettler said:
It's a pragmatic, broadbrush solution that deals with religious indoctrination at the source, which obviously isn't occurring at the moment. It will clearly not be favoured by the hand-wringers, but there we are.
One must be a 'hand-wringer' to object to criminalising / punishing millions of law-abiding people who cause no issues to society. Complex problems generally don't have simple solutions.
V8 Fettler said:
If religion is taught in schools then it should be with the intention of creating teenagers who are cynical and mistrustful of religious cranks of all persuasions.
Yes - the point I was trying to make. Having no religious education in schools could still lead to indoctrination away from the education system in churches/mosques, etc, as the knowledge and education of other viewpoints gets watered down. At least pre-arming youngsters with knowledge of other beliefs/social systems can hopefully lead to more acceptance of other viewpoints and hopefully more examination and questioning of the established religions and their ethics. Fundamental Muslim, Christian or Jew - your children will learn the basics of humanity, including upholding the rights of all people in our country - women and LGBT rights included. Don't like it? Tough. I find it interesting that many of the more recent brain-dead losers that have committed terrorist acts are British-born but a few generations down from new immigrant status - leading a conclusion that their indoctrination has been learned whilst residing in the UK.
V8 Fettler said:
MikeT66 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I can't work out if people are serious when they suggest banning any religion?
No - banning won't work and never has. What may work is removal of 'faith' schools, teaching of all religions in schools (I would prefer that children were taught about other viewpoints rather than just have to listen to indoctrinated parents) along with the importance of maintaining a liberal and questioing outlook, and removing religions from being afforded special protection in law. After all, if these 'gods' are so omnipotent, he/they/she shouldn't require man-made laws for protection surely...?While Roman Catholic, Sikh, Jewish and CoE schools would more than likely turn out well educated teenagers that could slip into modern British working life, 'baggage free' , all a pupil at a Muslim faith school is going to hear are highly islam biased teachings, way off the curriculum that they are supposed to be taught, with lots of prayers in between, and the inside of a flipping mosque later.
By allowing faith schools, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We'll never get our future communities and rising population out of the Sunni/Shia cycle if influence.
Burwood said:
I see that prick Corbyn is trying to score points by saying our foreign policy is to blame.of course it's a factor but it was Labours policy too.
It wasnt his policy though. Just because an old Labour leader thought it should what we do be doesnt mean he does.Its not the sole reason of course, but why the f
k cant we leave things alone sometimes.Stuff like this (whilst understandable while emotions are running high) helps doesnt it.....
'Here is another one of our bombs for you as revenge' - did it kill any of their kids? Who knows.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4542346/RA...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/man...
Edited by p1stonhead on Friday 26th May 08:14
Bibbs said:
Australian Muslim take on it ..
https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/35632786/manches...
if we had more iman's like the one with the white hat on this type of extremist more be reduced. Sensible stuff, and as they say he is spat on by his own people for saying it.https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/35632786/manches...
I watched Bitter Lake last night, it's available on iPlayer.
I'd recommend it to everyone as a summary of some key historical events and their consequences with Afghanistan as a focal point of much of it.
Acknowledging that it is one view of a complex mess it is hard to refute the fact that the west has created much of it.
I'd recommend it to everyone as a summary of some key historical events and their consequences with Afghanistan as a focal point of much of it.
Acknowledging that it is one view of a complex mess it is hard to refute the fact that the west has created much of it.
The Spruce goose said:
Bibbs said:
Australian Muslim take on it ..
https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/35632786/manches...
if we had more iman's like the one with the white hat on this type of extremist more be reduced. Sensible stuff, and as they say he is spat on by his own people for saying it.https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/35632786/manches...
My own view seem to sit very close to that of Imam Mohammad Tawhidi. It must be an extraordinarily challenging position for a Muslim to take, but I think he has applied a reason and logic to the situation that is, sadly, lacking in most Muslim or non-Muslim observers.
Edited by Digga on Friday 26th May 08:45
ferrisbueller said:
I watched Bitter Lake last night, it's available on iPlayer.
I'd recommend it to everyone as a summary of some key historical events and their consequences with Afghanistan as a focal point of much of it.
Acknowledging that it is one view of a complex mess it is hard to refute the fact that the west has created much of it.
It's a really good insight. I'd recommend it to everyone as a summary of some key historical events and their consequences with Afghanistan as a focal point of much of it.
Acknowledging that it is one view of a complex mess it is hard to refute the fact that the west has created much of it.
p1stonhead said:
Burwood said:
I see that prick Corbyn is trying to score points by saying our foreign policy is to blame.of course it's a factor but it was Labours policy too.
It wasnt his policy though. Just because an old Labour leader thought it should what we do be doesnt mean he does.Its not the sole reason of course, but why the f
k cant we leave things alone sometimes.Stuff like this (whilst understandable while emotions are running high) helps doesnt it.....
'Here is another one of our bombs for you as revenge' - did it kill any of their kids? Who knows.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4542346/RA...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/man...
Edited by p1stonhead on Friday 26th May 08:14
durbster said:
Burwood said:
I see that prick Corbyn is trying to score points by saying our foreign policy is to blame.of course it's a factor but it was Labours policy too.
Not sure what your beef is. You're complaining that he said something you agree with. 
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